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all right guys we have a special show

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this week

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two of my favorite books that i have

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read are

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hunt for the skinwalker and skinwalkers

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at the pentagon i'm really fortunate to

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have

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george knapp and calm kelleher joining

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me this week i'm going to bring them in

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welcome george and welcome calm great to

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see you guys i'm

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thank you so much for being part of this

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uh i'm really excited because as i said

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these are two of my favorite books

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and i tell people if there are two books

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you need to read they're at the top of

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my list and i'm not just saying that

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because

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i'm not just kissing butt there i think

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there are great books i also read brain

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trust part of it i have to read the rest

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of it which we can also talk about later

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but

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thank you for being here

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i'm just going to talk to you joe

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yeah

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so i want to start off with 2017 and for

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people watching we may not cover every

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detail because i'm going to i'm going to

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put all the transcripts on my blog

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so i suggest suggest you right there you

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start there there's four interviews or

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five interviews that these gentlemen

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have done and also dr lakatsky and

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that's going to be covered so read the

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blog first and then then come here and

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watch the interview so 2017 december

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16th you guys the the new york times

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article comes out

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how how do you what was your reaction

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when you saw first of all the article

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and then also that awesome was not

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colin why did you start

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well

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at the time i was um i was kind of

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immersed in the aerospace world i i was

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leading the environmental control and

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life support systems group at bigelow

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aerospace

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so i did know that obviously

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it was um

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it was

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surprising that the uh the moniker a-tip

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was sort of front and center

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um because i had uh i'd seen obviously

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senator reid's letter at that time uh

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way back in in 2009

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um but i really had not sort of focused

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at all on atip so i was really surprised

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to see the words atip right right there

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um i kept expecting i guess some sort of

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clarification as time went on

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that you know

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atip was not the name of the program

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that the 22 million dollars was tied to

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it was actually awesome and uh so

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um i kept expecting that there was some

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sort of clarification going to happen it

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never happened and then it sort of took

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a life took on a life of its own

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and so you know as i think as most

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people know who have read the book

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um atip was actually just a nickname

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that was used for security purposes

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um during that whole

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drive towards the special access program

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status that senator reid was was

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focusing on so

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yeah i mean i i was surprised to see

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that sort of

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coming up to the surface

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um as a uh as a sort of a

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a major 22 million dollar program which

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i knew it wasn't

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but um i kept i kept expecting a

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clarification and it never came

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did you make any phone calls like can

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you believe what this article is saying

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well we we we did communicate among

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ourselves but but you know at that stage

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it was sort of we were we were

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definitely

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not interested in in sort of running out

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and sort of uh and

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being very public about it uh like like

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i mentioned at the beginning uh i had a

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lot of other priorities on my plate and

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i know that all of the other people who

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had been involved with assap remember

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this was like

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six years after

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allstop had finished and there was a lot

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of people who were scattered to the wind

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so it was not as sort of a burning

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question

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um as it as it may have

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as it could have been if it had happened

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a lot

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earlier and george we talked about it

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but i don't think i ever asked you how

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when you i mean i'm sure you heard

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behind the scenes but when you actually

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saw the article what was your reaction

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your personal reaction well i mean i was

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thrilled with the overall uh story

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because you know of where it was

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appearing you know i've talked about it

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in public before is that uh that i knew

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about uh bass and knew about they had a

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contract and they were running this

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program but i never actually saw the

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name atip i never saw the word ossap so

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it did not strike me accord with me when

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i read the new york times story i was

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just thrilled that the story was out as

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i have expressed before joe um you know

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in the weeks leading up to that article

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when i got win that the new york times

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was working on the story i was a little

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bit miffed because i was aware of the

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program aware what was a large in big

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broad strokes

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would have been going on and i wanted to

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do the story i'd sat on a lot of the

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information that i had

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based on friendships and relationships

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with robert bigelow with column uh but

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you know i had to sort of back off back

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off from the ledge and and

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allow the times to go forward because

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senator reid tom de long

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had said hey if you do the story new

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york times says they'll back off they

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won't do it

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so you know i was thrilled with the

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overall story i knew that there were

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some factual errors but i wasn't upset

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by the atep moniker until later uh when

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i talked to these guys and uh and

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eventually with jim lakatsky about what

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the real name of the program was

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and i remember in 2019 i saw you speak

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down in uh laughlin at megacon and i and

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i heard awesome and we had heard it a

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little before that and i was like calm i

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was just like calm i'm like when or when

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are they going to correct the record and

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they never corrected it still isn't

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corrected which is amazing to me and i

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don't understand that um but moving on

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so

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calm could you just briefly describe

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what ossep was what the program

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studied

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it was a program that was designed from

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the get-go to study ufos

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and the um and the the original rfp that

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came out

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focused on 12 separate um

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aspects of advanced aerospace propulsion

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the word ufo in the uh in the request

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for proposals never appeared but there

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was no doubt in anybody's mind that asap

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was focused on

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ufos and

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on all of the

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performance characteristics that

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that came with ufos everything from

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looking at propulsion systems to lift

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performance indicators

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and we also from the get-go decided to

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look at

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human effects and human effects are

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everything from physiological effects

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uh through pathological effects and

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medical injuries

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um all the way out through

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uh the

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strange

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events that occur in people's lives

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sometimes after a ufo event we were

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determined to

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to follow

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these people

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not for just a weekend or for a week we

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were determined to especially the the

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index cases that we

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actually initiated through osap

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we were determined to follow these

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people through weeks and months and even

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years

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and it was only after that kind of

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relentless sort of

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you know go going after these people

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um week after week month after month

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that the the trust level started going

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up and we started hearing about all of

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these weird events that were happening

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in people's environments

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my

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working hypothesis

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in terms of lessons learned from this

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is that many many cases of ufo close

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encounters

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have strange after effects that occur in

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the weeks and months after but the

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reason that they're not talked about or

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or uh published is that most of the

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investigations wind up much quicker than

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what we were doing at uh at awesome so

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um

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also advanced aerospace

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weapons system application program

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threat analysis in terms of technology

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but it also focused on human effects

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both both the same time

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was one of the criticisms i've heard is

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well

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and it's people speculating it was

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before the book came out they said first

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they said it wasn't a ufo program and

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katzke went rogue and now it's like

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well it was a ufo program but the people

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in the dia did not know that they were

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going to study all of the after all the

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other effects like poltergeist and that

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was not part of the original contract is

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that accurate

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all of the discussions that happened um

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at the at the beginning of the contract

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um happened on both sides both uh at the

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bass level and also at the ia level so

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lukowski had a group working with him

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and uh and bass also had a group working

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there was constant back and forth back

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and forth so there was no ambiguity at

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all on either side of the

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um of the discussion either in

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washington dc or in las vegas in in on

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both sides of that there was um

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full understanding from the get-go that

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we were going to do a very very broad

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scope

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ufo investigation threat analysis

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technology analysis and human effects

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analysis there was never any ambiguity

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about that

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and one of the effects which is the one

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people speak about most

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with close encounters is the hitchhiker

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effect which george you spoke about it

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i don't know when you first started

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talking about it but

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um can you explain and then calm you can

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follow up with more details what the

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hitchhiker effect is

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i'm trying to remember if uh column and

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i think we know the guy who came up with

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that term there are other words for it

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other terms it's popped up in ghost uh

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research over the years i think i've

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since learned but it was something that

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happened

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with increasing frequency at skinwalker

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ranch you know the nids guys were

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studying it they had some cases there

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where

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whatever it is that's at the ranch would

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attach itself to people who spent a lot

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of time on it and follow them home and

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then in their personal lives far removed

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from the ranch

283
00:11:04,470 --> 00:11:02,320
you'd have this explosion of what we

284
00:11:06,949 --> 00:11:04,480
call paranormal activity things that

285
00:11:08,790 --> 00:11:06,959
have always been on the periphery of ufo

286
00:11:10,470 --> 00:11:08,800
encounters but have never been

287
00:11:11,910 --> 00:11:10,480
investigated you know how it is joe in

288
00:11:14,550 --> 00:11:11,920
the ufo world

289
00:11:17,670 --> 00:11:14,560
no one really wants to focus on anything

290
00:11:20,389 --> 00:11:17,680
much beyond uh nuts and bolts saucers in

291
00:11:22,470 --> 00:11:20,399
the sky that's acceptable that's

292
00:11:24,949 --> 00:11:22,480
perfectly reputable kind of research to

293
00:11:27,190 --> 00:11:24,959
do when you start investigating little

294
00:11:29,030 --> 00:11:27,200
green men and and

295
00:11:30,310 --> 00:11:29,040
close encounters and abductions it gets

296
00:11:33,190 --> 00:11:30,320
a little weirder

297
00:11:35,269 --> 00:11:33,200
or uh experiments with our genetics of

298
00:11:37,430 --> 00:11:35,279
family genetics over a long period of

299
00:11:39,829 --> 00:11:37,440
time or and then you get into like

300
00:11:42,230 --> 00:11:39,839
bigfoot showing up in proximity to ufos

301
00:11:44,550 --> 00:11:42,240
that are on the ground or a poltergeist

302
00:11:46,230 --> 00:11:44,560
activity breaking out in people's homes

303
00:11:48,710 --> 00:11:46,240
as happened at skinwalker ranch where

304
00:11:51,750 --> 00:11:48,720
people kind of get uneasy in pursuing

305
00:11:53,990 --> 00:11:51,760
that line of inquiry suddenly ufos which

306
00:11:56,389 --> 00:11:54,000
are weird enough in in many circles to

307
00:11:57,829 --> 00:11:56,399
to investigate are no longer respectable

308
00:12:00,389 --> 00:11:57,839
when you mix all the rest of that stuff

309
00:12:02,470 --> 00:12:00,399
it in there the fact is that asap and

310
00:12:04,150 --> 00:12:02,480
the program that bass carried out

311
00:12:06,470 --> 00:12:04,160
was willing to follow the evidence where

312
00:12:07,829 --> 00:12:06,480
it leads you're never going to accept or

313
00:12:10,310 --> 00:12:07,839
understand

314
00:12:12,069 --> 00:12:10,320
ufos the larger mysteries associated

315
00:12:13,750 --> 00:12:12,079
with ufos unless you look at the whole

316
00:12:16,629 --> 00:12:13,760
picture you can't just limit it to one

317
00:12:18,629 --> 00:12:16,639
little um sliver of the evidence of

318
00:12:20,310 --> 00:12:18,639
things that people see in the skies you

319
00:12:22,230 --> 00:12:20,320
have to look at the whole thing that's

320
00:12:24,550 --> 00:12:22,240
what they had the courage to do that was

321
00:12:26,069 --> 00:12:24,560
the the brilliance of this program is to

322
00:12:27,990 --> 00:12:26,079
look at the big picture follow the

323
00:12:29,430 --> 00:12:28,000
evidence where it leads no matter how

324
00:12:32,389 --> 00:12:29,440
weird know how

325
00:12:33,990 --> 00:12:32,399
inexplicable and strange it might get so

326
00:12:36,230 --> 00:12:34,000
the hitchhiker effects started at the

327
00:12:38,870 --> 00:12:36,240
ranch i think they really got got well

328
00:12:41,509 --> 00:12:38,880
documented uh during the bass period

329
00:12:43,110 --> 00:12:41,519
during the asap program where

330
00:12:44,710 --> 00:12:43,120
a column can tell you better than i did

331
00:12:47,269 --> 00:12:44,720
but but they had

332
00:12:49,509 --> 00:12:47,279
a number of agents we'll call them

333
00:12:51,590 --> 00:12:49,519
intelligence operatives who went to the

334
00:12:52,710 --> 00:12:51,600
ranch i don't know what the specific

335
00:12:54,470 --> 00:12:52,720
plan was

336
00:12:56,310 --> 00:12:54,480
basically is to see how they reacted to

337
00:12:57,990 --> 00:12:56,320
what the phenomena was much as what

338
00:12:59,590 --> 00:12:58,000
column did to me long time ago when i

339
00:13:01,670 --> 00:12:59,600
first went there to see if something

340
00:13:03,350 --> 00:13:01,680
came and grabbed me but all of these

341
00:13:05,269 --> 00:13:03,360
people all of them there were five in

342
00:13:07,430 --> 00:13:05,279
particular that went to the property

343
00:13:09,590 --> 00:13:07,440
they encountered something strange and

344
00:13:11,670 --> 00:13:09,600
when they left it followed them and for

345
00:13:13,910 --> 00:13:11,680
a couple of these people it's still with

346
00:13:16,069 --> 00:13:13,920
them more than 10 years later messing

347
00:13:18,550 --> 00:13:16,079
with their homes um

348
00:13:20,150 --> 00:13:18,560
showing up in really strange ways inside

349
00:13:22,310 --> 00:13:20,160
their homes uh

350
00:13:24,710 --> 00:13:22,320
scaring the bejesus out of their family

351
00:13:25,990 --> 00:13:24,720
members and then spreading almost like a

352
00:13:29,590 --> 00:13:26,000
virus to

353
00:13:32,150 --> 00:13:29,600
their neighbors to their kids friends to

354
00:13:33,990 --> 00:13:32,160
others they've associated with and uh

355
00:13:36,310 --> 00:13:34,000
you know as i said in some cases it's

356
00:13:38,550 --> 00:13:36,320
still going on i think it's part of the

357
00:13:40,230 --> 00:13:38,560
reason that uh mr bigelow

358
00:13:42,870 --> 00:13:40,240
wanted to sell the ranch to get it off

359
00:13:44,790 --> 00:13:42,880
his get it off his plate because he some

360
00:13:46,470 --> 00:13:44,800
of these things followed him home some

361
00:13:48,389 --> 00:13:46,480
followed column they followed dr

362
00:13:49,829 --> 00:13:48,399
lekatsky they followed me

363
00:13:51,910 --> 00:13:49,839
and you know

364
00:13:53,910 --> 00:13:51,920
as i've said before joe publicly i mean

365
00:13:56,150 --> 00:13:53,920
i i tried to get it to follow me for a

366
00:13:57,110 --> 00:13:56,160
long time i would bring things home from

367
00:13:59,189 --> 00:13:57,120
the ranch

368
00:14:01,670 --> 00:13:59,199
bits of rock and and

369
00:14:03,509 --> 00:14:01,680
garbage and things like that and hope

370
00:14:05,269 --> 00:14:03,519
that it would engage me at home because

371
00:14:07,269 --> 00:14:05,279
it never engaged me there

372
00:14:09,910 --> 00:14:07,279
and uh finally it did

373
00:14:12,550 --> 00:14:09,920
but not me it was seen by my wife at our

374
00:14:14,550 --> 00:14:12,560
home on a couple of occasions and i you

375
00:14:16,790 --> 00:14:14,560
know the real question might be what's

376
00:14:19,829 --> 00:14:16,800
the physics of that how does that work

377
00:14:21,509 --> 00:14:19,839
um when you have a ufo encounter does it

378
00:14:24,230 --> 00:14:21,519
mean you're you have all these other

379
00:14:25,910 --> 00:14:24,240
phenomena that come attached to it and

380
00:14:28,710 --> 00:14:25,920
why does it attach to some people and

381
00:14:31,590 --> 00:14:28,720
not others don't know

382
00:14:33,509 --> 00:14:31,600
yeah and you you've spoken about

383
00:14:35,189 --> 00:14:33,519
your experience your wife's experiences

384
00:14:36,550 --> 00:14:35,199
and it's you said mister and first of

385
00:14:38,310 --> 00:14:36,560
all that's the first time i heard

386
00:14:40,629 --> 00:14:38,320
anybody say that

387
00:14:42,710 --> 00:14:40,639
jim lackowski had his own

388
00:14:44,389 --> 00:14:42,720
hitchhiker-like effects do you know any

389
00:14:45,990 --> 00:14:44,399
details or you can can you share any of

390
00:14:47,750 --> 00:14:46,000
that

391
00:14:48,710 --> 00:14:47,760
um i don't think i should maybe column

392
00:14:51,269 --> 00:14:48,720
can

393
00:14:53,910 --> 00:14:51,279
well i i'd prefer not to go into the

394
00:14:56,710 --> 00:14:53,920
details but uh um

395
00:14:59,670 --> 00:14:56,720
i do know that um

396
00:15:02,870 --> 00:14:59,680
uh dr lakotsky had some

397
00:15:04,150 --> 00:15:02,880
really sort of intense experiences in

398
00:15:07,269 --> 00:15:04,160
his own home

399
00:15:09,829 --> 00:15:07,279
um just exactly like everybody else who

400
00:15:12,150 --> 00:15:09,839
had been on the skidmarker property but

401
00:15:13,350 --> 00:15:12,160
one thing i might add to this whole

402
00:15:16,550 --> 00:15:13,360
thing is

403
00:15:18,790 --> 00:15:16,560
that i think there's a tendency to

404
00:15:21,590 --> 00:15:18,800
associate

405
00:15:24,069 --> 00:15:21,600
this quote-unquote hitchhiker effect

406
00:15:27,110 --> 00:15:24,079
with skinwalker ranch it just happens

407
00:15:29,910 --> 00:15:27,120
that there was a very intense focus

408
00:15:32,389 --> 00:15:29,920
on skinwalker ranch with five five

409
00:15:33,670 --> 00:15:32,399
separate military intelligence people

410
00:15:36,710 --> 00:15:33,680
from different

411
00:15:39,030 --> 00:15:36,720
uh armed services that were on the ranch

412
00:15:42,150 --> 00:15:39,040
um scoping it out for

413
00:15:45,350 --> 00:15:42,160
sensor placement and uh and and

414
00:15:46,389 --> 00:15:45,360
investigative capacity but

415
00:15:51,829 --> 00:15:46,399
not

416
00:15:55,670 --> 00:15:51,839
subject to this uh quote-unquote uh

417
00:15:58,310 --> 00:15:55,680
hitchhiker's effect but also

418
00:15:59,590 --> 00:15:58,320
some of the cases that we investigated

419
00:16:02,629 --> 00:15:59,600
in depth

420
00:16:05,590 --> 00:16:02,639
um that had nothing whatever to do with

421
00:16:08,230 --> 00:16:05,600
skinwalker ranch also had evidence of

422
00:16:10,870 --> 00:16:08,240
this effect for example

423
00:16:13,670 --> 00:16:10,880
in the book we talk about um

424
00:16:16,949 --> 00:16:13,680
these three

425
00:16:19,189 --> 00:16:16,959
column ufos that were in a field uh this

426
00:16:20,710 --> 00:16:19,199
biotechnologist was driving on the way

427
00:16:23,110 --> 00:16:20,720
to bend oregon

428
00:16:25,030 --> 00:16:23,120
and um out of the window with his

429
00:16:27,670 --> 00:16:25,040
daughter and out of the window of the

430
00:16:29,910 --> 00:16:27,680
car they see these uh ufos

431
00:16:32,790 --> 00:16:29,920
moving erratically around the feet

432
00:16:36,230 --> 00:16:32,800
in a nearby field probably 20 feet off

433
00:16:37,030 --> 00:16:36,240
the ground and they came towards the car

434
00:16:39,430 --> 00:16:37,040
um

435
00:16:40,790 --> 00:16:39,440
two of them went into the car

436
00:16:43,110 --> 00:16:40,800
one of them went in front of the

437
00:16:45,590 --> 00:16:43,120
windshield one of them went through the

438
00:16:47,110 --> 00:16:45,600
guy's shoulder actually left shoulder to

439
00:16:51,749 --> 00:16:47,120
right shoulder

440
00:16:53,990 --> 00:16:51,759
the windshield but the daughter and

441
00:16:57,350 --> 00:16:54,000
again this was a case of

442
00:16:58,470 --> 00:16:57,360
incessant relentless follow-up follow-up

443
00:17:00,550 --> 00:16:58,480
follow-up

444
00:17:01,430 --> 00:17:00,560
you know week after week month after

445
00:17:03,509 --> 00:17:01,440
month

446
00:17:04,390 --> 00:17:03,519
and so it turned out actually that the

447
00:17:07,270 --> 00:17:04,400
daughter

448
00:17:09,590 --> 00:17:07,280
once she sort of um went back to

449
00:17:12,789 --> 00:17:09,600
university on the east coast

450
00:17:14,949 --> 00:17:12,799
there was a plethora of all a lot of

451
00:17:17,110 --> 00:17:14,959
strange effects that started erupting in

452
00:17:18,549 --> 00:17:17,120
her her household

453
00:17:20,230 --> 00:17:18,559
she had nothing whatever to do with

454
00:17:22,789 --> 00:17:20,240
skinwalker wrench

455
00:17:25,110 --> 00:17:22,799
but the same kind of thing that

456
00:17:27,350 --> 00:17:25,120
her roommates were waking up with sort

457
00:17:30,070 --> 00:17:27,360
of black shadows looking at them from

458
00:17:32,150 --> 00:17:30,080
the end of the bed there was um

459
00:17:34,470 --> 00:17:32,160
strange creatures there was balls of

460
00:17:36,630 --> 00:17:34,480
light in the house

461
00:17:38,630 --> 00:17:36,640
kind of classic uh stuff that was

462
00:17:41,350 --> 00:17:38,640
happening to people that had been on

463
00:17:43,750 --> 00:17:41,360
skinwalker ranch but she had nothing

464
00:17:46,310 --> 00:17:43,760
whatever to do with skinwalker ranch we

465
00:17:49,270 --> 00:17:46,320
talk in the in the book also about this

466
00:17:52,950 --> 00:17:49,280
gentleman in georgia who got radiated

467
00:17:55,270 --> 00:17:52,960
from uh from a a large silent black

468
00:17:57,190 --> 00:17:55,280
triangle that was over his property in

469
00:18:01,590 --> 00:17:57,200
georgia

470
00:18:03,669 --> 00:18:01,600
after that event we had medical people

471
00:18:06,630 --> 00:18:03,679
you know interviewing him and taking

472
00:18:09,430 --> 00:18:06,640
blood samples and hospital work-ups for

473
00:18:13,350 --> 00:18:09,440
months and years after that

474
00:18:16,070 --> 00:18:13,360
he also endured a lot of anomalies um in

475
00:18:18,710 --> 00:18:16,080
his surroundings including sort of

476
00:18:19,750 --> 00:18:18,720
psychological effects paranormal effects

477
00:18:22,470 --> 00:18:19,760
so

478
00:18:25,110 --> 00:18:22,480
when when we talk about the hitchhiker

479
00:18:27,669 --> 00:18:25,120
effect there's a ten a tendency to

480
00:18:28,870 --> 00:18:27,679
pigeonhole that oh yeah this this stuff

481
00:18:30,950 --> 00:18:28,880
is only

482
00:18:33,510 --> 00:18:30,960
weird stuff that happens on skinwalker

483
00:18:34,950 --> 00:18:33,520
ranch but that is not the case

484
00:18:38,070 --> 00:18:34,960
um you know

485
00:18:40,070 --> 00:18:38,080
i i think the bottom line is people

486
00:18:43,430 --> 00:18:40,080
really need to

487
00:18:46,310 --> 00:18:43,440
pour resources into extensive

488
00:18:48,950 --> 00:18:46,320
investigation of these cases not just

489
00:18:51,669 --> 00:18:48,960
what happens in the you know during the

490
00:18:54,470 --> 00:18:51,679
event but what happens after the event

491
00:18:58,549 --> 00:18:54,480
to the actual human beings were involved

492
00:19:02,310 --> 00:18:58,559
i mean to my knowledge um i've never

493
00:19:03,110 --> 00:19:02,320
heard any of the um the f-18 pilots that

494
00:19:08,470 --> 00:19:03,120
have

495
00:19:10,789 --> 00:19:08,480
interactions with ufos both on east and

496
00:19:12,710 --> 00:19:10,799
west coast i don't know if these people

497
00:19:15,350 --> 00:19:12,720
have been followed for

498
00:19:17,909 --> 00:19:15,360
months or years to see if they've had

499
00:19:19,990 --> 00:19:17,919
any unusual effects in their homes

500
00:19:21,909 --> 00:19:20,000
afterwards but i can go

501
00:19:24,390 --> 00:19:21,919
you know i can go all the way back to

502
00:19:25,710 --> 00:19:24,400
kenneth arnold you know kenneth arnold

503
00:19:29,190 --> 00:19:25,720
in june of

504
00:19:32,630 --> 00:19:29,200
1947 had this sort of really dramatic

505
00:19:35,350 --> 00:19:32,640
very famous encounter and years decades

506
00:19:36,789 --> 00:19:35,360
later his daughter began to speak about

507
00:19:39,750 --> 00:19:36,799
what was happening

508
00:19:41,990 --> 00:19:39,760
to him afterwards and it turns out yes

509
00:19:44,630 --> 00:19:42,000
he had a lot of unusual effects on his

510
00:19:47,029 --> 00:19:44,640
own including balls of light that would

511
00:19:50,150 --> 00:19:47,039
meander through the house and a lot of

512
00:19:52,549 --> 00:19:50,160
other unusual effects so i mean can we

513
00:19:55,110 --> 00:19:52,559
ascribe those unusual effects to what

514
00:19:57,270 --> 00:19:55,120
we're talking about in terms of the

515
00:19:59,909 --> 00:19:57,280
so-called hitchhiker effect i don't know

516
00:20:02,470 --> 00:19:59,919
the answer to that because nobody really

517
00:20:05,110 --> 00:20:02,480
sort of went down went and drilled down

518
00:20:06,549 --> 00:20:05,120
on kenneth arnold and interviewed him

519
00:20:09,990 --> 00:20:06,559
from that perspective

520
00:20:12,310 --> 00:20:10,000
but you know my point is that

521
00:20:14,630 --> 00:20:12,320
the reason that maybe this hitchhiker

522
00:20:16,870 --> 00:20:14,640
effect has not been

523
00:20:20,230 --> 00:20:16,880
really sort of integrated in the into

524
00:20:23,430 --> 00:20:20,240
the so-called ufo field is that the the

525
00:20:25,190 --> 00:20:23,440
average investigation may last one week

526
00:20:27,270 --> 00:20:25,200
where you know boots on the ground

527
00:20:29,990 --> 00:20:27,280
investigators go out to the

528
00:20:31,830 --> 00:20:30,000
property interview all of the witnesses

529
00:20:33,909 --> 00:20:31,840
and then they get on a plane and they go

530
00:20:35,270 --> 00:20:33,919
back and they do an analysis and they

531
00:20:37,350 --> 00:20:35,280
database it

532
00:20:40,630 --> 00:20:37,360
the point is that you know there needs

533
00:20:43,190 --> 00:20:40,640
to be resources focused on this where

534
00:20:45,669 --> 00:20:43,200
these people are followed for weeks if

535
00:20:48,230 --> 00:20:45,679
not months the other part of this when i

536
00:20:50,870 --> 00:20:48,240
alluded to the f-18 pilots says there's

537
00:20:53,990 --> 00:20:50,880
no way in hell that an f-18 pilot with a

538
00:20:54,870 --> 00:20:54,000
security clearance and a lot of training

539
00:20:56,549 --> 00:20:54,880
you know

540
00:20:58,789 --> 00:20:56,559
hundreds of thousands of dollars that

541
00:21:02,070 --> 00:20:58,799
have gone into years of training is

542
00:21:04,470 --> 00:21:02,080
going to say or do anything that will

543
00:21:06,789 --> 00:21:04,480
risk his or her

544
00:21:09,110 --> 00:21:06,799
ability to fly in the future and may

545
00:21:10,950 --> 00:21:09,120
even risk their security clearances so

546
00:21:12,789 --> 00:21:10,960
there is really no permissive

547
00:21:14,950 --> 00:21:12,799
environment

548
00:21:17,669 --> 00:21:14,960
currently where these people can

549
00:21:20,630 --> 00:21:17,679
actually talk about this stuff um in a

550
00:21:22,390 --> 00:21:20,640
in in some in some relative safety

551
00:21:24,950 --> 00:21:22,400
there's really no permissive environment

552
00:21:26,549 --> 00:21:24,960
whatsoever so why on earth would they

553
00:21:27,350 --> 00:21:26,559
ever um

554
00:21:29,750 --> 00:21:27,360
you know

555
00:21:31,990 --> 00:21:29,760
vouch that that anything has happened to

556
00:21:33,590 --> 00:21:32,000
them if it has happened to them

557
00:21:35,270 --> 00:21:33,600
it just goes back to what i was the

558
00:21:37,110 --> 00:21:35,280
point i was trying to make before joe is

559
00:21:39,110 --> 00:21:37,120
that this has been around forever you

560
00:21:40,870 --> 00:21:39,120
know everyone in ufology knows the name

561
00:21:43,909 --> 00:21:40,880
of kenneth arnold and what he saw over

562
00:21:45,669 --> 00:21:43,919
washington state in in june of 1947. how

563
00:21:47,270 --> 00:21:45,679
many people know that he had weird stuff

564
00:21:49,590 --> 00:21:47,280
happening in his home what we call

565
00:21:51,270 --> 00:21:49,600
poltergeist type activity uh different

566
00:21:53,590 --> 00:21:51,280
kinds of phenomena that erupted and went

567
00:21:55,830 --> 00:21:53,600
on for a long time very few i mean

568
00:21:58,870 --> 00:21:55,840
ufologists find it respectable to study

569
00:22:00,870 --> 00:21:58,880
ufos nuts and bolts craft in the sky you

570
00:22:02,549 --> 00:22:00,880
get outside that parameter when it gets

571
00:22:04,149 --> 00:22:02,559
weird they're not comfortable doing it

572
00:22:06,549 --> 00:22:04,159
so they don't look at it

573
00:22:08,390 --> 00:22:06,559
the the skinwalker ranch study the bass

574
00:22:09,430 --> 00:22:08,400
period during that study

575
00:22:11,110 --> 00:22:09,440
gave you a

576
00:22:13,190 --> 00:22:11,120
unique opportunity to go ahead and take

577
00:22:15,190 --> 00:22:13,200
a look at it the five agents that came

578
00:22:16,950 --> 00:22:15,200
there didn't have this in their lives

579
00:22:18,549 --> 00:22:16,960
until they came to the ranch after

580
00:22:19,830 --> 00:22:18,559
they're exposed to something there they

581
00:22:21,669 --> 00:22:19,840
took it home and they did have it in

582
00:22:23,750 --> 00:22:21,679
their lives and some of them still have

583
00:22:25,190 --> 00:22:23,760
it so you know it's always been around

584
00:22:27,029 --> 00:22:25,200
nobody's paid any attention to it

585
00:22:28,789 --> 00:22:27,039
because it's somehow not respectable we

586
00:22:30,470 --> 00:22:28,799
didn't make it up the ranch didn't make

587
00:22:32,549 --> 00:22:30,480
it up it didn't start there it's been

588
00:22:34,630 --> 00:22:32,559
going a long time it's just something

589
00:22:36,149 --> 00:22:34,640
that needs to be looked at that's that's

590
00:22:38,310 --> 00:22:36,159
why those books those two books are my

591
00:22:41,029 --> 00:22:38,320
favorite books because between knapp

592
00:22:42,470 --> 00:22:41,039
kelleher like you guys will look at

593
00:22:45,190 --> 00:22:42,480
wherever the data takes you and that's

594
00:22:47,190 --> 00:22:45,200
how i am i'm like i don't one of my

595
00:22:48,230 --> 00:22:47,200
credos in the past has been don't judge

596
00:22:49,830 --> 00:22:48,240
something just because it sounds

597
00:22:51,990 --> 00:22:49,840
ridiculous and which what's a perfect

598
00:22:53,590 --> 00:22:52,000
example is you know the bipedal wolf

599
00:22:55,590 --> 00:22:53,600
that was seen by the woman and then her

600
00:22:58,070 --> 00:22:55,600
kids and then the kids friends it's like

601
00:22:59,669 --> 00:22:58,080
yeah i understand how ridiculous some of

602
00:23:01,830 --> 00:22:59,679
this sounds and i've said that to you

603
00:23:03,110 --> 00:23:01,840
too it's like i don't want it to be that

604
00:23:04,789 --> 00:23:03,120
i don't want it to be bigfoot i don't

605
00:23:06,149 --> 00:23:04,799
want to be any of that stuff i really i

606
00:23:07,590 --> 00:23:06,159
mean i don't really have any wishes but

607
00:23:09,190 --> 00:23:07,600
when i see that i'm like all right here

608
00:23:11,110 --> 00:23:09,200
we go because there are people out there

609
00:23:14,230 --> 00:23:11,120
that cannot accept anything but nuts and

610
00:23:16,230 --> 00:23:14,240
bolts but one of the criticisms

611
00:23:18,310 --> 00:23:16,240
you guys have gotten and the book and

612
00:23:20,149 --> 00:23:18,320
the program is and either one of you can

613
00:23:22,149 --> 00:23:20,159
answer this well they're just it's an

614
00:23:24,070 --> 00:23:22,159
it's an agenda to make all this negative

615
00:23:25,909 --> 00:23:24,080
because there are orb cases out there

616
00:23:27,510 --> 00:23:25,919
where they're curing cancer where

617
00:23:29,830 --> 00:23:27,520
they're helping people and they're

618
00:23:31,990 --> 00:23:29,840
totally ignoring it so i don't know if

619
00:23:33,590 --> 00:23:32,000
you want to address that calm because i

620
00:23:35,990 --> 00:23:33,600
tell them well the program awesome

621
00:23:37,669 --> 00:23:36,000
wasn't really intended to you know look

622
00:23:39,190 --> 00:23:37,679
at the entire phenomenon you guys were

623
00:23:40,710 --> 00:23:39,200
just reacting to

624
00:23:42,230 --> 00:23:40,720
i don't know you could you could explain

625
00:23:43,830 --> 00:23:42,240
it to me but

626
00:23:45,750 --> 00:23:43,840
the accusation is you focused on the

627
00:23:48,310 --> 00:23:45,760
negative

628
00:23:51,669 --> 00:23:48,320
um there were cases there were certainly

629
00:23:55,029 --> 00:23:51,679
cases that we investigated that that you

630
00:23:56,710 --> 00:23:55,039
know people had positive outcomes from

631
00:23:59,029 --> 00:23:56,720
uh from you

632
00:24:01,190 --> 00:23:59,039
interactions with ufos

633
00:24:02,870 --> 00:24:01,200
but they were the minority of cases that

634
00:24:05,029 --> 00:24:02,880
we ran into

635
00:24:07,430 --> 00:24:05,039
even the data streams that we were

636
00:24:09,350 --> 00:24:07,440
getting in that were independent from

637
00:24:11,590 --> 00:24:09,360
the boots of the ground uh

638
00:24:13,510 --> 00:24:11,600
investigations we were doing the data

639
00:24:16,230 --> 00:24:13,520
streams that were coming through

640
00:24:17,830 --> 00:24:16,240
um you know various databases that we

641
00:24:21,269 --> 00:24:17,840
have access to

642
00:24:22,870 --> 00:24:21,279
we were doing analysis in terms of what

643
00:24:26,549 --> 00:24:22,880
physiological effects what were the

644
00:24:28,789 --> 00:24:26,559
pathological effects and there was a um

645
00:24:30,789 --> 00:24:28,799
a distinct

646
00:24:32,390 --> 00:24:30,799
grouping of

647
00:24:34,630 --> 00:24:32,400
some positive effects but there were

648
00:24:36,149 --> 00:24:34,640
technically minority

649
00:24:39,029 --> 00:24:36,159
you know there are famous

650
00:24:41,590 --> 00:24:39,039
so-called healing effects

651
00:24:44,549 --> 00:24:41,600
other countries

652
00:24:47,269 --> 00:24:44,559
as a result of interactions with ufos we

653
00:24:48,950 --> 00:24:47,279
databased all of that kind of stuff but

654
00:24:51,909 --> 00:24:48,960
the fact is when

655
00:24:54,789 --> 00:24:51,919
all of the analysis uh occurred on

656
00:24:56,470 --> 00:24:54,799
thousands and thousands of cases

657
00:24:59,110 --> 00:24:56,480
the fact was that the

658
00:25:02,310 --> 00:24:59,120
um the healing and the

659
00:25:04,230 --> 00:25:02,320
euphoric sort of life transformation and

660
00:25:06,390 --> 00:25:04,240
all of that um

661
00:25:08,390 --> 00:25:06,400
you know we're in the minority

662
00:25:10,310 --> 00:25:08,400
and the sort of

663
00:25:11,430 --> 00:25:10,320
physiological effects

664
00:25:13,190 --> 00:25:11,440
um

665
00:25:15,350 --> 00:25:13,200
you know let's face it

666
00:25:19,269 --> 00:25:15,360
nobody wants to go into an emergency

667
00:25:21,990 --> 00:25:19,279
room after an encounter so you know

668
00:25:24,789 --> 00:25:22,000
you can sort of you can interpret that

669
00:25:26,789 --> 00:25:24,799
encounter and the after effects in terms

670
00:25:28,870 --> 00:25:26,799
of medical effects i mean if you're

671
00:25:31,990 --> 00:25:28,880
really sort of a glass half full type

672
00:25:33,590 --> 00:25:32,000
person you might actually spin it into

673
00:25:36,390 --> 00:25:33,600
well it actually had a really good

674
00:25:38,950 --> 00:25:36,400
effect on me because now i look at life

675
00:25:41,590 --> 00:25:38,960
in a completely different way i've gone

676
00:25:44,390 --> 00:25:41,600
through the ontological shock process

677
00:25:46,870 --> 00:25:44,400
and now i'm i have expanded vision uh

678
00:25:49,269 --> 00:25:46,880
but it was a tough ride while i laughed

679
00:25:51,510 --> 00:25:49,279
while other people would interpret that

680
00:25:52,549 --> 00:25:51,520
as yeah i think caused medical

681
00:25:56,230 --> 00:25:52,559
appointments

682
00:25:57,430 --> 00:25:56,240
in the emergency room so

683
00:25:59,430 --> 00:25:57,440
therefore

684
00:26:01,909 --> 00:25:59,440
you know it wasn't a particularly good

685
00:26:06,870 --> 00:26:01,919
effect but you know it all comes down to

686
00:26:10,310 --> 00:26:08,470
i would add this joe it's sort of like

687
00:26:13,510 --> 00:26:10,320
news the news business people always

688
00:26:16,070 --> 00:26:13,520
accuse us you only report bad stuff well

689
00:26:17,830 --> 00:26:16,080
yeah i mean a plane didn't crash today

690
00:26:19,750 --> 00:26:17,840
that's not going to make our newscast

691
00:26:21,990 --> 00:26:19,760
when a plane crashes that does make a

692
00:26:24,230 --> 00:26:22,000
newscast in this case there's a lot of

693
00:26:26,789 --> 00:26:24,240
stuff at skinwalker for example that was

694
00:26:28,390 --> 00:26:26,799
completely benign as if whatever was

695
00:26:30,310 --> 00:26:28,400
going on there didn't care whether

696
00:26:31,990 --> 00:26:30,320
people are around there to see it or not

697
00:26:33,430 --> 00:26:32,000
the things that sort of made news that

698
00:26:35,350 --> 00:26:33,440
got the attention of the guys who are

699
00:26:37,750 --> 00:26:35,360
investigating it were things that stood

700
00:26:39,510 --> 00:26:37,760
out that were often kind of negative

701
00:26:40,789 --> 00:26:39,520
i'm going to go knock this gardener out

702
00:26:43,750 --> 00:26:40,799
by the way let's make it oh is that what

703
00:26:45,190 --> 00:26:43,760
that is i'll be right back yeah okay

704
00:26:47,190 --> 00:26:45,200
okay so

705
00:26:48,390 --> 00:26:47,200
calm how did you guys determine if a

706
00:26:50,149 --> 00:26:48,400
case was

707
00:26:52,230 --> 00:26:50,159
credible take me through the steps and

708
00:26:53,350 --> 00:26:52,240
then afterwards your round tables that

709
00:26:54,870 --> 00:26:53,360
you spoke about in the book when you

710
00:26:57,909 --> 00:26:54,880
were talking about different levels of

711
00:26:59,590 --> 00:26:57,919
credibility um and also whether or not

712
00:27:00,950 --> 00:26:59,600
you thought maybe this was intentional

713
00:27:02,149 --> 00:27:00,960
or not

714
00:27:05,110 --> 00:27:02,159
well

715
00:27:07,590 --> 00:27:05,120
the the process was we we went out and

716
00:27:08,390 --> 00:27:07,600
and hired um

717
00:27:41,190 --> 00:27:08,400
a

718
00:27:43,350 --> 00:27:41,200
occurred first

719
00:27:46,389 --> 00:27:43,360
we had we had

720
00:27:50,230 --> 00:27:46,399
brazilian cases translated we had french

721
00:27:51,750 --> 00:27:50,240
cases translated so so um

722
00:27:57,350 --> 00:27:51,760
the

723
00:27:59,830 --> 00:27:57,360
um we assigned a numerical index of

724
00:28:02,230 --> 00:27:59,840
credibility and all of this is published

725
00:28:04,549 --> 00:28:02,240
in jacques valley's book for example

726
00:28:06,389 --> 00:28:04,559
confrontations

727
00:28:08,950 --> 00:28:06,399
goes through the sort of

728
00:28:11,990 --> 00:28:08,960
whether or not a a case has had a site

729
00:28:14,230 --> 00:28:12,000
visit whether or not there's um you know

730
00:28:17,190 --> 00:28:14,240
different aspects of credibility you can

731
00:28:19,510 --> 00:28:17,200
assign a numerical index well every

732
00:28:22,070 --> 00:28:19,520
single case that we

733
00:28:23,750 --> 00:28:22,080
that we had on our plate

734
00:28:26,230 --> 00:28:23,760
there was a number of people sitting

735
00:28:28,149 --> 00:28:26,240
around the table arguing back and forth

736
00:28:31,269 --> 00:28:28,159
about what numerical

737
00:28:34,070 --> 00:28:31,279
index of credibility well site visit

738
00:28:36,310 --> 00:28:34,080
plus or minus was was pretty easy but

739
00:28:39,269 --> 00:28:36,320
then then there were you know questions

740
00:28:42,389 --> 00:28:39,279
about okay so how many different

741
00:28:45,350 --> 00:28:42,399
explanations need to come in before you

742
00:28:46,310 --> 00:28:45,360
can essentially write this off as a

743
00:28:50,070 --> 00:28:46,320
you know

744
00:28:52,230 --> 00:28:50,080
a sort of a swamp a swamp gas effect or

745
00:28:54,070 --> 00:28:52,240
you know what was it sort of venus low

746
00:28:56,070 --> 00:28:54,080
in the sky this kind of thing

747
00:28:58,630 --> 00:28:56,080
so there was a lot of arguments back and

748
00:29:01,990 --> 00:28:58,640
forth and the end result of that process

749
00:29:04,149 --> 00:29:02,000
was the data entry process and you know

750
00:29:07,990 --> 00:29:04,159
behind this whole thing

751
00:29:10,870 --> 00:29:08,000
was the absolute driving urgency that

752
00:29:14,870 --> 00:29:10,880
garbage in garbage out a database is

753
00:29:17,909 --> 00:29:14,880
only as good as its weakest cases

754
00:29:20,389 --> 00:29:17,919
so you know when you're inputting dozens

755
00:29:22,149 --> 00:29:20,399
if not hundreds of separate cases and

756
00:29:24,549 --> 00:29:22,159
you're looking at them from multiple

757
00:29:26,470 --> 00:29:24,559
different levels you've gotta and once

758
00:29:29,510 --> 00:29:26,480
you go through that whole process

759
00:29:32,149 --> 00:29:29,520
of deciding whether or not a an index of

760
00:29:35,350 --> 00:29:32,159
credibility or particular case meets

761
00:29:38,230 --> 00:29:35,360
that threshold um you do become

762
00:29:40,389 --> 00:29:38,240
extremely familiar with these cases and

763
00:29:42,950 --> 00:29:40,399
this happened not only with cases that

764
00:29:44,870 --> 00:29:42,960
we were um working with boots on the

765
00:29:48,389 --> 00:29:44,880
ground we had a

766
00:29:51,990 --> 00:29:48,399
we had a very very fruitful relationship

767
00:29:54,710 --> 00:29:52,000
with mufam that lasted quite a long time

768
00:29:56,789 --> 00:29:54,720
and we had weekly telecons with uh

769
00:29:59,669 --> 00:29:56,799
richard lang who was the program manager

770
00:30:02,470 --> 00:29:59,679
for mufon and we had a couple of program

771
00:30:05,909 --> 00:30:02,480
managers at ossap and we went back and

772
00:30:08,789 --> 00:30:05,919
forth and so mufon were were

773
00:30:11,990 --> 00:30:08,799
basically a fire hose of cases

774
00:30:14,070 --> 00:30:12,000
that that we eventually ended up putting

775
00:30:17,510 --> 00:30:14,080
people on the on the ground in different

776
00:30:20,230 --> 00:30:17,520
areas of the country but that process

777
00:30:24,070 --> 00:30:20,240
that analytical process that occurred

778
00:30:26,549 --> 00:30:24,080
with the 10-person team at asap was a

779
00:30:29,990 --> 00:30:26,559
very intensive process but

780
00:30:32,389 --> 00:30:30,000
um the intent was not to contaminate the

781
00:30:33,669 --> 00:30:32,399
databases and ultimately the data

782
00:30:37,909 --> 00:30:33,679
warehouse

783
00:30:40,310 --> 00:30:37,919
with um cases that were flimsy or cases

784
00:30:43,590 --> 00:30:40,320
that had no credibility because like i

785
00:30:45,909 --> 00:30:43,600
said garbage in garbage out and that is

786
00:30:49,269 --> 00:30:45,919
probably the best rule of thumb

787
00:30:52,549 --> 00:30:49,279
that you can ever apply to a database

788
00:30:56,950 --> 00:30:54,710
the database what are the chances that

789
00:30:58,870 --> 00:30:56,960
we'll ever see that database because to

790
00:31:00,470 --> 00:30:58,880
me if you take the names out is there

791
00:31:02,149 --> 00:31:00,480
anything in there really that's that

792
00:31:03,590 --> 00:31:02,159
should be classified in either of your

793
00:31:05,190 --> 00:31:03,600
you know georgia or opinion or columns

794
00:31:08,710 --> 00:31:05,200
your opinion do you think it should be

795
00:31:12,470 --> 00:31:10,230
i'm not aware of anything that's in

796
00:31:14,070 --> 00:31:12,480
there that's top secret or classified or

797
00:31:15,990 --> 00:31:14,080
should be there was one of the durds

798
00:31:17,830 --> 00:31:16,000
that was uh classified for probably

799
00:31:19,830 --> 00:31:17,840
pretty good reasons but there is

800
00:31:22,470 --> 00:31:19,840
sensitive information in the in the

801
00:31:25,430 --> 00:31:22,480
database what i know about it uh

802
00:31:27,590 --> 00:31:25,440
particularly the names health health uh

803
00:31:29,909 --> 00:31:27,600
information that's very personal

804
00:31:31,990 --> 00:31:29,919
a lot of these people gave their stories

805
00:31:33,750 --> 00:31:32,000
uh and shared their accounts on the

806
00:31:36,389 --> 00:31:33,760
specific condition that it not be

807
00:31:38,789 --> 00:31:36,399
revealed that it not be made public now

808
00:31:40,149 --> 00:31:38,799
do you violate that promise um you

809
00:31:42,310 --> 00:31:40,159
expect to ever work with those folks

810
00:31:44,070 --> 00:31:42,320
again or to earn the trust of other

811
00:31:46,149 --> 00:31:44,080
witnesses in the future if there's ever

812
00:31:48,230 --> 00:31:46,159
a future program where you make the same

813
00:31:49,830 --> 00:31:48,240
kind of promises don't worry it'll stay

814
00:31:51,990 --> 00:31:49,840
private your name will never be

815
00:31:53,590 --> 00:31:52,000
mentioned your story will never be told

816
00:31:55,269 --> 00:31:53,600
can you do that in the future if you go

817
00:31:56,870 --> 00:31:55,279
ahead and just release all this uh you

818
00:31:59,590 --> 00:31:56,880
know colin has seen a lot more of it

819
00:32:01,190 --> 00:31:59,600
than i have obviously so maybe he can

820
00:32:02,470 --> 00:32:01,200
address whether there's sensitive stuff

821
00:32:04,230 --> 00:32:02,480
in there that never should be made

822
00:32:05,350 --> 00:32:04,240
public and from a national security

823
00:32:07,909 --> 00:32:05,360
standpoint i don't think there's

824
00:32:10,070 --> 00:32:07,919
anything in there that would be

825
00:32:12,310 --> 00:32:10,080
there's there's a lot of testimony that

826
00:32:14,950 --> 00:32:12,320
people gave on the understanding that

827
00:32:18,389 --> 00:32:14,960
they would be uh kept quiet there's

828
00:32:20,389 --> 00:32:18,399
person personal uh identification

829
00:32:21,430 --> 00:32:20,399
um in there there's

830
00:32:24,389 --> 00:32:21,440
um

831
00:32:26,149 --> 00:32:24,399
health health information in there

832
00:32:29,269 --> 00:32:26,159
releasing all of that stuff would be a

833
00:32:31,909 --> 00:32:29,279
violation of the hipaa rules

834
00:32:36,389 --> 00:32:31,919
um that you know that that govern

835
00:32:38,470 --> 00:32:36,399
um the the acquisition and discussion of

836
00:32:40,310 --> 00:32:38,480
of medical information there's a lot of

837
00:32:44,070 --> 00:32:40,320
sensitive medical information in there

838
00:32:45,509 --> 00:32:44,080
so um there would have to be a very

839
00:32:47,830 --> 00:32:45,519
intensive

840
00:32:50,389 --> 00:32:47,840
uh reduction process

841
00:32:53,029 --> 00:32:50,399
um that would have to go case by case

842
00:32:55,669 --> 00:32:53,039
line by line and remember this this

843
00:32:58,950 --> 00:32:55,679
database is not just a sort of a one or

844
00:33:01,909 --> 00:32:58,960
two columns it is vast because it has

845
00:33:03,990 --> 00:33:01,919
multiple multiple levels uh right across

846
00:33:06,630 --> 00:33:04,000
that it is has

847
00:33:09,350 --> 00:33:06,640
you know hot links to video it has hot

848
00:33:12,149 --> 00:33:09,360
links to photos it has hot links to

849
00:33:14,789 --> 00:33:12,159
materials analysis dna analysis

850
00:33:17,430 --> 00:33:14,799
elemental analysis all of that is linked

851
00:33:19,190 --> 00:33:17,440
in there and you know that the question

852
00:33:21,190 --> 00:33:19,200
really is

853
00:33:22,630 --> 00:33:21,200
is somebody sufficient

854
00:33:24,470 --> 00:33:22,640
sufficiently

855
00:33:27,110 --> 00:33:24,480
attention to detail

856
00:33:27,990 --> 00:33:27,120
that you they could be trusted in order

857
00:33:30,549 --> 00:33:28,000
to

858
00:33:32,549 --> 00:33:30,559
um basically

859
00:33:34,549 --> 00:33:32,559
clean up that database

860
00:33:36,950 --> 00:33:34,559
uh before it would be released to the

861
00:33:38,389 --> 00:33:36,960
public i i don't know the answer to that

862
00:33:40,950 --> 00:33:38,399
question because i know

863
00:33:43,830 --> 00:33:40,960
the enormous thousands of hours that

864
00:33:46,230 --> 00:33:43,840
went into building the database and we

865
00:33:49,509 --> 00:33:46,240
are actually getting straws in the wind

866
00:33:51,350 --> 00:33:49,519
that the this database is being utilized

867
00:33:54,149 --> 00:33:51,360
by various people in the united states

868
00:33:57,110 --> 00:33:54,159
government um and and that's a source of

869
00:33:59,750 --> 00:33:57,120
uh actually uh very positive news in my

870
00:34:02,470 --> 00:33:59,760
opinion because to have it lying

871
00:34:04,230 --> 00:34:02,480
gathering dust um in some kind of

872
00:34:07,269 --> 00:34:04,240
archive at the defense intelligence

873
00:34:08,710 --> 00:34:07,279
agency as opposed to being actually

874
00:34:12,710 --> 00:34:08,720
utilized

875
00:34:15,909 --> 00:34:12,720
because as as a as a baseline a template

876
00:34:18,230 --> 00:34:15,919
for working with in this area

877
00:34:21,109 --> 00:34:18,240
that database is a very very valuable

878
00:34:24,710 --> 00:34:21,119
asset and it was specifically engineered

879
00:34:27,750 --> 00:34:24,720
and constructed in order for it to be

880
00:34:30,470 --> 00:34:27,760
very very easy to superimpose an

881
00:34:34,230 --> 00:34:30,480
analytical layer on top of all of the

882
00:34:37,190 --> 00:34:34,240
data so that it could be very easily

883
00:34:39,510 --> 00:34:37,200
upgraded to be interrogated and again

884
00:34:42,710 --> 00:34:39,520
we're getting straws on the wind from

885
00:34:45,030 --> 00:34:42,720
friends that are working in in this area

886
00:34:46,149 --> 00:34:45,040
that you know that that is the case that

887
00:34:51,510 --> 00:34:46,159
this

888
00:34:54,069 --> 00:34:51,520
upgraded so um we think that's really

889
00:34:56,790 --> 00:34:54,079
positive news because in the end you

890
00:35:00,550 --> 00:34:56,800
know um the enormous amount of work that

891
00:35:04,470 --> 00:35:00,560
went in between 2008 and 2010 is

892
00:35:09,190 --> 00:35:06,470
on i think it was when

893
00:35:11,030 --> 00:35:09,200
uh dr lukaszki was on i think it was on

894
00:35:13,829 --> 00:35:11,040
coast to coast he said that

895
00:35:16,310 --> 00:35:13,839
at bass there's an an entire room of

896
00:35:17,910 --> 00:35:16,320
analysts raw data pictures recordings

897
00:35:20,230 --> 00:35:17,920
and he wants it put in the national

898
00:35:21,270 --> 00:35:20,240
archives is any of that stuff i don't

899
00:35:22,870 --> 00:35:21,280
how does it work with with the

900
00:35:26,790 --> 00:35:22,880
proprietary

901
00:35:30,390 --> 00:35:26,800
if robert billow wanted to make all that

902
00:35:32,230 --> 00:35:30,400
public tomorrow could he do that

903
00:35:34,230 --> 00:35:32,240
um well there are two sides to that

904
00:35:38,310 --> 00:35:34,240
equation um

905
00:35:41,589 --> 00:35:38,320
the um the defense intelligence agency

906
00:35:42,630 --> 00:35:41,599
uh contracted a private contractor

907
00:35:43,510 --> 00:35:42,640
to

908
00:35:46,390 --> 00:35:43,520
um

909
00:35:47,910 --> 00:35:46,400
to go out and to gather enormous amounts

910
00:35:51,430 --> 00:35:47,920
of information

911
00:35:53,109 --> 00:35:51,440
and uh year number one it was um i

912
00:35:56,230 --> 00:35:53,119
believe it was 10 million year number

913
00:35:58,829 --> 00:35:56,240
two was 12 million so that information

914
00:36:02,710 --> 00:35:58,839
was delivered as a set of

915
00:36:04,710 --> 00:36:02,720
104 i think 105 separate reports that

916
00:36:06,550 --> 00:36:04,720
ended up at the defense intelligence

917
00:36:09,190 --> 00:36:06,560
agency um

918
00:36:11,910 --> 00:36:09,200
all of that was bought and paid for

919
00:36:14,790 --> 00:36:11,920
under under contract now whether or not

920
00:36:17,109 --> 00:36:14,800
it could be um could ever be released

921
00:36:19,430 --> 00:36:17,119
from a contractor point of view i don't

922
00:36:21,510 --> 00:36:19,440
know the answer to that in terms of of

923
00:36:24,470 --> 00:36:21,520
giving you a sort of a short

924
00:36:26,790 --> 00:36:24,480
um sort of you know sound bite that

925
00:36:29,990 --> 00:36:26,800
would have to be enormous amounts of

926
00:36:31,349 --> 00:36:30,000
scoping out on both sides of uh of this

927
00:36:33,349 --> 00:36:31,359
in order for something like that to

928
00:36:35,910 --> 00:36:33,359
happen i honestly

929
00:36:37,910 --> 00:36:35,920
um think that the main

930
00:36:40,310 --> 00:36:37,920
the three main impediments to releasing

931
00:36:42,310 --> 00:36:40,320
this information are as you said the

932
00:36:45,670 --> 00:36:42,320
contractor

933
00:36:46,550 --> 00:36:45,680
privacy issue

934
00:36:54,630 --> 00:36:46,560
the

935
00:36:57,829 --> 00:36:54,640
release of this would violate hipaa

936
00:37:00,950 --> 00:36:57,839
guidelines and and the third part is the

937
00:37:02,790 --> 00:37:00,960
personally protected information um that

938
00:37:04,150 --> 00:37:02,800
you know especially for people who are

939
00:37:08,630 --> 00:37:04,160
active duty

940
00:37:11,510 --> 00:37:08,640
with the united states government part

941
00:37:15,030 --> 00:37:11,520
of the review process that our book went

942
00:37:17,109 --> 00:37:15,040
through at via doctor uh one of the

943
00:37:20,950 --> 00:37:17,119
questions on one of the

944
00:37:23,990 --> 00:37:20,960
strongly worded guidance that we got

945
00:37:26,310 --> 00:37:24,000
was that that all of the medic sensitive

946
00:37:29,109 --> 00:37:26,320
sensitive medical information had to be

947
00:37:31,510 --> 00:37:29,119
protected all of the person private

948
00:37:34,829 --> 00:37:31,520
personal information uh had to be

949
00:37:38,390 --> 00:37:34,839
protected so um we're under the

950
00:37:40,550 --> 00:37:38,400
obligation um in in publishing this book

951
00:37:43,430 --> 00:37:40,560
to protect that information

952
00:37:45,670 --> 00:37:43,440
as per the pentagon guidelines and joe

953
00:37:47,750 --> 00:37:45,680
that that process for our book the book

954
00:37:50,069 --> 00:37:47,760
is pretty straightforward

955
00:37:52,790 --> 00:37:50,079
it took 14 months to get the approval

956
00:37:55,750 --> 00:37:52,800
for that much stuff compared to this

957
00:37:57,990 --> 00:37:55,760
much stuff that is in the database

958
00:38:00,230 --> 00:37:58,000
it'd take a take an awful long time to

959
00:38:02,550 --> 00:38:00,240
get that approved i'm not opposed to it

960
00:38:05,030 --> 00:38:02,560
i think it probably should be public but

961
00:38:07,270 --> 00:38:05,040
the how how and when that can happen

962
00:38:09,190 --> 00:38:07,280
i don't think anybody knows

963
00:38:12,470 --> 00:38:09,200
so out of the blue

964
00:38:15,589 --> 00:38:12,480
recently senator kirsten gillibrand her

965
00:38:16,950 --> 00:38:15,599
proposal the amendment

966
00:38:19,349 --> 00:38:16,960
related to the national defense

967
00:38:21,910 --> 00:38:19,359
authorization act is talking about

968
00:38:24,150 --> 00:38:21,920
creating a uap slash ufo office called

969
00:38:26,630 --> 00:38:24,160
the anomaly surveillance and resolution

970
00:38:28,150 --> 00:38:26,640
office which would develop procedures

971
00:38:30,069 --> 00:38:28,160
to synchronize and standardize

972
00:38:32,790 --> 00:38:30,079
standardize the collection reporting and

973
00:38:35,750 --> 00:38:32,800
analysis of incidents including

974
00:38:38,470 --> 00:38:35,760
adverse physiological effects

975
00:38:40,150 --> 00:38:38,480
regarding uap across the department and

976
00:38:41,990 --> 00:38:40,160
intelligence community

977
00:38:44,150 --> 00:38:42,000
it also talks about stuff related to

978
00:38:46,470 --> 00:38:44,160
crash retrievals not using those exact

979
00:38:49,109 --> 00:38:46,480
words but both of your thoughts on that

980
00:38:50,390 --> 00:38:49,119
because i was not expecting that

981
00:38:54,150 --> 00:38:50,400
well i i

982
00:38:54,950 --> 00:38:54,160
my own opinion of that is that um

983
00:38:55,829 --> 00:38:54,960
that

984
00:38:58,630 --> 00:38:55,839
this

985
00:39:01,109 --> 00:38:58,640
gillibrand amendment goes much much

986
00:39:03,430 --> 00:39:01,119
further than i've ever seen it certainly

987
00:39:06,310 --> 00:39:03,440
goes way further than anything that has

988
00:39:08,710 --> 00:39:06,320
been been released publicly in terms of

989
00:39:11,270 --> 00:39:08,720
intent from either the department of

990
00:39:15,430 --> 00:39:11,280
defense or anybody else

991
00:39:16,790 --> 00:39:15,440
the uap task force report of june 25th

992
00:39:19,109 --> 00:39:16,800
of this year

993
00:39:21,270 --> 00:39:19,119
um obviously just sort of scrapes the

994
00:39:23,750 --> 00:39:21,280
surface but you know i was looking at

995
00:39:26,470 --> 00:39:23,760
the uh the actual

996
00:39:27,510 --> 00:39:26,480
wording uh in the gila brand um

997
00:39:30,470 --> 00:39:27,520
amendment

998
00:39:32,950 --> 00:39:30,480
uh and and it talks about specifically

999
00:39:36,069 --> 00:39:32,960
that you know

1000
00:39:39,510 --> 00:39:36,079
designate existing line organizations to

1001
00:39:42,069 --> 00:39:39,520
conduct field investigations of uap

1002
00:39:42,950 --> 00:39:42,079
and then there's a whole section that

1003
00:39:47,270 --> 00:39:42,960
reads

1004
00:39:51,510 --> 00:39:47,280
analysis of propulsion aerodynamic

1005
00:39:54,390 --> 00:39:51,520
control signatures structures materials

1006
00:39:56,710 --> 00:39:54,400
sensors countermeasures weapons

1007
00:39:59,910 --> 00:39:56,720
electronics and power generation i mean

1008
00:40:03,710 --> 00:39:59,920
it's almost like the rfp

1009
00:40:06,630 --> 00:40:03,720
that generated whatsapp is being exactly

1010
00:40:09,030 --> 00:40:06,640
recapitulated you know in this they also

1011
00:40:11,990 --> 00:40:09,040
as you mentioned go into you know we

1012
00:40:15,109 --> 00:40:12,000
really need to analyze uh adverse

1013
00:40:17,510 --> 00:40:15,119
physiological effects medical effects

1014
00:40:20,950 --> 00:40:17,520
health effects i mean this is almost

1015
00:40:23,670 --> 00:40:20,960
like a staffer from um

1016
00:40:27,030 --> 00:40:23,680
kirsten gillibrand's office went ahead

1017
00:40:28,870 --> 00:40:27,040
and read appendix 2 in the uh in the

1018
00:40:32,069 --> 00:40:28,880
book you know skin walkers at the

1019
00:40:35,190 --> 00:40:32,079
pentagon because appendix 2 lays out

1020
00:40:38,589 --> 00:40:35,200
verbatim what uh what that amendment

1021
00:40:41,670 --> 00:40:38,599
talks about i think it's by far the most

1022
00:40:43,349 --> 00:40:41,680
sophisticated look that i've seen

1023
00:40:44,390 --> 00:40:43,359
um from within the united states

1024
00:40:46,069 --> 00:40:44,400
government

1025
00:40:48,630 --> 00:40:46,079
you know with the exception of

1026
00:40:51,349 --> 00:40:48,640
skinwalkers of the pentagon but i think

1027
00:40:52,390 --> 00:40:51,359
it's by far the most sophisticated look

1028
00:40:53,990 --> 00:40:52,400
at this

1029
00:41:00,309 --> 00:40:54,000
whole

1030
00:41:02,870 --> 00:41:00,319
analysis of ufos it goes far beyond the

1031
00:41:03,910 --> 00:41:02,880
uapt task force

1032
00:41:06,710 --> 00:41:03,920
report

1033
00:41:09,990 --> 00:41:06,720
and i personally am extremely encouraged

1034
00:41:10,710 --> 00:41:10,000
by it i i have to speculate that you

1035
00:41:11,910 --> 00:41:10,720
know

1036
00:41:14,550 --> 00:41:11,920
somebody

1037
00:41:17,589 --> 00:41:14,560
in senator gillibrand's office may have

1038
00:41:18,230 --> 00:41:17,599
read appendix 2 in

1039
00:41:25,109 --> 00:41:18,240
in

1040
00:41:26,630 --> 00:41:25,119
but it's exactly what's needed if you're

1041
00:41:28,950 --> 00:41:26,640
going to solve this mystery you can't

1042
00:41:31,430 --> 00:41:28,960
just look at nuts and bolts craft in the

1043
00:41:33,589 --> 00:41:31,440
sky and you know column is being modest

1044
00:41:34,550 --> 00:41:33,599
but he and dr lykotsky wrote a pretty

1045
00:41:36,790 --> 00:41:34,560
ambitious

1046
00:41:39,510 --> 00:41:36,800
uh description of what a good program

1047
00:41:41,430 --> 00:41:39,520
would be and laid it out in the book and

1048
00:41:43,510 --> 00:41:41,440
this legislation somehow picked up on it

1049
00:41:45,589 --> 00:41:43,520
i would point out that that what uh

1050
00:41:47,910 --> 00:41:45,599
gillibrand senator gillibrand proposed

1051
00:41:49,829 --> 00:41:47,920
this past week or so is far different

1052
00:41:51,750 --> 00:41:49,839
from the proposed legislation and

1053
00:41:53,349 --> 00:41:51,760
language that we've seen leading up to

1054
00:41:54,309 --> 00:41:53,359
this point where they want to create

1055
00:41:56,870 --> 00:41:54,319
something

1056
00:41:59,270 --> 00:41:56,880
as a successor to the uap task force

1057
00:42:01,109 --> 00:41:59,280
whether it's going to go in nasa or in

1058
00:42:03,109 --> 00:42:01,119
the space command or wherever it's going

1059
00:42:05,109 --> 00:42:03,119
to go now those programs we're looking

1060
00:42:07,510 --> 00:42:05,119
at stuff that's flying around in the sky

1061
00:42:09,030 --> 00:42:07,520
national security implications is it a

1062
00:42:10,870 --> 00:42:09,040
threat that kind of stuff but none of

1063
00:42:12,790 --> 00:42:10,880
the weirdness none of the human effects

1064
00:42:14,870 --> 00:42:12,800
none of that stuff is mentioned now

1065
00:42:16,630 --> 00:42:14,880
they're talking about it that's great um

1066
00:42:19,030 --> 00:42:16,640
i'll believe it when i see it if it gets

1067
00:42:21,670 --> 00:42:19,040
past because there's a lot of aversion

1068
00:42:23,349 --> 00:42:21,680
to anything construed as woo there in

1069
00:42:24,230 --> 00:42:23,359
washington but it's exactly what's

1070
00:42:25,990 --> 00:42:24,240
needed

1071
00:42:28,230 --> 00:42:26,000
yeah and i know people

1072
00:42:30,550 --> 00:42:28,240
go ahead sorry once you get into

1073
00:42:33,109 --> 00:42:30,560
studying physiological effects

1074
00:42:35,589 --> 00:42:33,119
and once you start looking at adverse

1075
00:42:38,230 --> 00:42:35,599
medical and health effects

1076
00:42:41,030 --> 00:42:38,240
that means that by definition you're

1077
00:42:42,710 --> 00:42:41,040
following these people over time you're

1078
00:42:46,550 --> 00:42:42,720
following these people for more than a

1079
00:42:49,750 --> 00:42:46,560
weekend or a week and so therefore it

1080
00:42:52,470 --> 00:42:49,760
opens the door for uh for these people

1081
00:42:56,230 --> 00:42:52,480
uh who have had close encounters with

1082
00:42:59,349 --> 00:42:56,240
uaps ufos to start reporting unusual

1083
00:43:01,829 --> 00:42:59,359
effects i mean it's kind of like um

1084
00:43:05,030 --> 00:43:01,839
a chicken and egg thing um if you're

1085
00:43:06,069 --> 00:43:05,040
only looking at sensor driven

1086
00:43:08,069 --> 00:43:06,079
effects

1087
00:43:10,150 --> 00:43:08,079
um you know it's kind of like if you're

1088
00:43:13,430 --> 00:43:10,160
only using a hammer everything you see

1089
00:43:15,990 --> 00:43:13,440
is a nail so if you're only using sensor

1090
00:43:18,230 --> 00:43:16,000
sensor-based effects and sensor-based

1091
00:43:19,109 --> 00:43:18,240
analysis um of course you're not going

1092
00:43:23,589 --> 00:43:19,119
to have

1093
00:43:26,150 --> 00:43:23,599
any sort of information whatsoever on

1094
00:43:29,190 --> 00:43:26,160
physiological effects or psychological

1095
00:43:30,470 --> 00:43:29,200
effects or adverse health effects

1096
00:43:33,589 --> 00:43:30,480
you're just not going to have anything

1097
00:43:35,750 --> 00:43:33,599
like that so um you know it's a case of

1098
00:43:38,710 --> 00:43:35,760
what you what you how you ask the

1099
00:43:40,870 --> 00:43:38,720
questions and how you ask the questions

1100
00:43:43,750 --> 00:43:40,880
really really determines the answers you

1101
00:43:47,990 --> 00:43:43,760
get now you know just as a sort of a

1102
00:43:49,349 --> 00:43:48,000
a a sort of an off off uh off route

1103
00:43:52,309 --> 00:43:49,359
um

1104
00:43:55,589 --> 00:43:52,319
way back in the needs days we had a we

1105
00:43:58,550 --> 00:43:55,599
had visit from um the engineers behind

1106
00:44:00,790 --> 00:43:58,560
uh project hestalin in norway you know

1107
00:44:03,430 --> 00:44:00,800
as you know project hustling was one of

1108
00:44:04,470 --> 00:44:03,440
the one of the longest running sensor

1109
00:44:05,750 --> 00:44:04,480
driven

1110
00:44:07,750 --> 00:44:05,760
programs

1111
00:44:09,190 --> 00:44:07,760
it's still i believe going and it has

1112
00:44:11,030 --> 00:44:09,200
given rise to

1113
00:44:14,390 --> 00:44:11,040
international collaborations between

1114
00:44:16,710 --> 00:44:14,400
norwegians and italians and it has led

1115
00:44:18,710 --> 00:44:16,720
to the publication of a lot of papers

1116
00:44:20,790 --> 00:44:18,720
but the fact is you know they installed

1117
00:44:23,030 --> 00:44:20,800
autonomous surveillance

1118
00:44:25,109 --> 00:44:23,040
um in the hesterlin valley and you know

1119
00:44:27,190 --> 00:44:25,119
one of these fjords in norway and they

1120
00:44:29,670 --> 00:44:27,200
picked up a lot of data over the years

1121
00:44:31,430 --> 00:44:29,680
they got a lot of data so we

1122
00:44:34,069 --> 00:44:31,440
the national institute for discovery

1123
00:44:36,550 --> 00:44:34,079
science hosted a visit from some of the

1124
00:44:38,230 --> 00:44:36,560
engineers involved in that program way

1125
00:44:39,910 --> 00:44:38,240
back when

1126
00:44:42,230 --> 00:44:39,920
and it was really interesting at the end

1127
00:44:45,190 --> 00:44:42,240
of all of the technical briefings about

1128
00:44:47,510 --> 00:44:45,200
the sensor data we were kind of uh

1129
00:44:49,750 --> 00:44:47,520
casually discussing you know some of

1130
00:44:52,150 --> 00:44:49,760
what was happening on the ranch and a

1131
00:44:54,710 --> 00:44:52,160
couple of the engineers basically said

1132
00:44:57,270 --> 00:44:54,720
look you know all of the people on the

1133
00:44:59,030 --> 00:44:57,280
ground that we've talked to in that area

1134
00:45:01,349 --> 00:44:59,040
they're all reporting weird effects

1135
00:45:03,510 --> 00:45:01,359
they're they're reporting paranormal

1136
00:45:05,829 --> 00:45:03,520
stuff in their homes they're reporting

1137
00:45:07,750 --> 00:45:05,839
abduction effects but they said you know

1138
00:45:09,510 --> 00:45:07,760
as engineers there's no way we're going

1139
00:45:12,309 --> 00:45:09,520
to touch any of that stuff we're

1140
00:45:14,390 --> 00:45:12,319
engineers we're not psychiatrists so i

1141
00:45:16,470 --> 00:45:14,400
mean you know it was kind of amusing

1142
00:45:18,630 --> 00:45:16,480
from our perspective you know we were

1143
00:45:20,790 --> 00:45:18,640
kind of knee-deep in sort of some of the

1144
00:45:23,190 --> 00:45:20,800
weird effects on skin walker ranch and

1145
00:45:24,309 --> 00:45:23,200
here were these sort of really sort of

1146
00:45:27,030 --> 00:45:24,319
um

1147
00:45:28,230 --> 00:45:27,040
talented engineers talking about the

1148
00:45:29,670 --> 00:45:28,240
stuff

1149
00:45:31,589 --> 00:45:29,680
that was happening to people on the

1150
00:45:33,109 --> 00:45:31,599
ground in the hesterlin valley but there

1151
00:45:35,910 --> 00:45:33,119
was no way they were going to touch this

1152
00:45:38,150 --> 00:45:35,920
stuff because they're engineers you know

1153
00:45:39,829 --> 00:45:38,160
it's kind of outside the scope of

1154
00:45:41,589 --> 00:45:39,839
the way they think

1155
00:45:43,430 --> 00:45:41,599
i i had never heard that about hessdalen

1156
00:45:45,190 --> 00:45:43,440
i actually went to norway i did not go

1157
00:45:47,109 --> 00:45:45,200
to i did not get to go to hessdalen

1158
00:45:48,630 --> 00:45:47,119
unfortunately uh but there are people

1159
00:45:50,230 --> 00:45:48,640
right now that are talking and saying

1160
00:45:52,230 --> 00:45:50,240
when your book came out they were upset

1161
00:45:53,829 --> 00:45:52,240
they go this is gonna ruin everything

1162
00:45:55,910 --> 00:45:53,839
they're talking too much woo and i'm

1163
00:45:57,670 --> 00:45:55,920
like we can't bring this to a senator

1164
00:46:00,069 --> 00:45:57,680
i'm like you don't necessarily need to

1165
00:46:01,990 --> 00:46:00,079
bring it to a senator although it's now

1166
00:46:05,030 --> 00:46:02,000
making its way into the language which

1167
00:46:07,670 --> 00:46:05,040
which is great um so yeah i mean when i

1168
00:46:09,750 --> 00:46:07,680
talk to people i can judge pretty

1169
00:46:12,470 --> 00:46:09,760
quickly not always right whether or not

1170
00:46:14,309 --> 00:46:12,480
i can go from ufos into the next you

1171
00:46:15,750 --> 00:46:14,319
know subject related to poltergeists and

1172
00:46:18,069 --> 00:46:15,760
usually if there's silence i know i

1173
00:46:19,430 --> 00:46:18,079
gotta back off a little bit um

1174
00:46:22,069 --> 00:46:19,440
one thing we talked about before we went

1175
00:46:23,829 --> 00:46:22,079
on how did you guys determine if

1176
00:46:25,109 --> 00:46:23,839
something was a threat whether whether

1177
00:46:27,270 --> 00:46:25,119
it was intentional because the

1178
00:46:29,270 --> 00:46:27,280
biotechnologist in bend oregon the

1179
00:46:32,470 --> 00:46:29,280
daughter's looking at these three orbs

1180
00:46:34,069 --> 00:46:32,480
or uap they come into the car the uap

1181
00:46:36,069 --> 00:46:34,079
goes into a shoulder he winds up getting

1182
00:46:37,670 --> 00:46:36,079
cancer and i'm thinking

1183
00:46:39,270 --> 00:46:37,680
if this is something advanced say it's

1184
00:46:41,190 --> 00:46:39,280
another intelligence wouldn't they know

1185
00:46:43,109 --> 00:46:41,200
by now that going into a human would

1186
00:46:45,190 --> 00:46:43,119
cause something bad for us did you guys

1187
00:46:47,430 --> 00:46:45,200
have those kind of discussions

1188
00:46:49,510 --> 00:46:47,440
yeah we did i mean we went we went back

1189
00:46:52,069 --> 00:46:49,520
and forth um

1190
00:46:55,349 --> 00:46:52,079
around we again round table we discussed

1191
00:46:57,349 --> 00:46:55,359
that case at length and you know it

1192
00:46:59,829 --> 00:46:57,359
when push comes to shove

1193
00:47:01,990 --> 00:46:59,839
um what got entered into the database

1194
00:47:05,430 --> 00:47:02,000
obviously was just the details of the

1195
00:47:08,230 --> 00:47:05,440
case but um there was there were two

1196
00:47:11,670 --> 00:47:08,240
sides to this one was that this was

1197
00:47:14,150 --> 00:47:11,680
some kind of a deliberate attack on

1198
00:47:16,470 --> 00:47:14,160
these innocent people that were driving

1199
00:47:18,470 --> 00:47:16,480
on the way to bend oregon and the second

1200
00:47:19,990 --> 00:47:18,480
alternative was just you know these

1201
00:47:22,630 --> 00:47:20,000
people happen to be in the wrong place

1202
00:47:25,270 --> 00:47:22,640
at the wrong time for whatever whatever

1203
00:47:26,549 --> 00:47:25,280
happened here that you know maybe

1204
00:47:30,069 --> 00:47:26,559
maybe these

1205
00:47:31,750 --> 00:47:30,079
um objects were flying in the direction

1206
00:47:35,190 --> 00:47:31,760
uh they were they were passing through

1207
00:47:36,549 --> 00:47:35,200
the road and they passed uh by accident

1208
00:47:38,630 --> 00:47:36,559
through the car

1209
00:47:41,430 --> 00:47:38,640
they passed by accident through this

1210
00:47:44,470 --> 00:47:41,440
guy's body who ended up getting a rare

1211
00:47:47,910 --> 00:47:44,480
form of ductal cancer that thankfully

1212
00:47:51,190 --> 00:47:47,920
did not go metastatic but um in the end

1213
00:47:54,549 --> 00:47:51,200
you know the the um the discussion

1214
00:47:57,670 --> 00:47:54,559
ended up that was uh we never resolved

1215
00:48:00,230 --> 00:47:57,680
whether or not this was a deliberate

1216
00:48:01,589 --> 00:48:00,240
attack or if it was that these people

1217
00:48:05,750 --> 00:48:01,599
were in the wrong place at the wrong

1218
00:48:08,710 --> 00:48:05,760
time um and it's very difficult uh to

1219
00:48:11,030 --> 00:48:08,720
make that call but you know we we were

1220
00:48:13,109 --> 00:48:11,040
very careful in the book and we were

1221
00:48:16,549 --> 00:48:13,119
very careful when we were

1222
00:48:19,430 --> 00:48:16,559
uh writing up reports on threat analysis

1223
00:48:21,750 --> 00:48:19,440
for for the defense intelligence agency

1224
00:48:25,430 --> 00:48:21,760
we were very very careful

1225
00:48:28,069 --> 00:48:25,440
never to draw the line and say that this

1226
00:48:31,190 --> 00:48:28,079
phenomenon is a threat to national

1227
00:48:34,790 --> 00:48:31,200
security or this phenomenon is a threat

1228
00:48:37,510 --> 00:48:34,800
to humans the most we could say is that

1229
00:48:38,790 --> 00:48:37,520
this was a this phenomenon was a threat

1230
00:48:40,150 --> 00:48:38,800
to human

1231
00:48:42,069 --> 00:48:40,160
uh health

1232
00:48:44,630 --> 00:48:42,079
uh it was a phenomenon

1233
00:48:47,109 --> 00:48:44,640
or it was a threat to human well-being

1234
00:48:49,349 --> 00:48:47,119
but you know going beyond that um you

1235
00:48:50,950 --> 00:48:49,359
know as as i've said before in in

1236
00:48:52,309 --> 00:48:50,960
previous interviews

1237
00:48:55,589 --> 00:48:52,319
you know

1238
00:48:58,950 --> 00:48:55,599
going going and describing a threat to

1239
00:49:01,750 --> 00:48:58,960
national security means that you have to

1240
00:49:03,990 --> 00:49:01,760
have both components of threat analysis

1241
00:49:06,390 --> 00:49:04,000
you have to have capability and you have

1242
00:49:07,589 --> 00:49:06,400
to have intent and there is really no

1243
00:49:10,230 --> 00:49:07,599
way

1244
00:49:12,470 --> 00:49:10,240
when push comes to shove of finally

1245
00:49:15,670 --> 00:49:12,480
analyzing what the intent

1246
00:49:18,309 --> 00:49:15,680
of this phenomenon is um there's just

1247
00:49:20,870 --> 00:49:18,319
not enough data we have a lot of data on

1248
00:49:25,109 --> 00:49:20,880
capability i mean the tic tac case

1249
00:49:27,990 --> 00:49:25,119
was uh extensively analyzed um

1250
00:49:31,030 --> 00:49:28,000
and you know a lot of capability a lot

1251
00:49:33,670 --> 00:49:31,040
of data on acceleration a lot of data on

1252
00:49:35,510 --> 00:49:33,680
performance but what is the intent i

1253
00:49:38,630 --> 00:49:35,520
mean the bottom line is we don't have

1254
00:49:42,069 --> 00:49:38,640
data on intent and until you have data

1255
00:49:44,790 --> 00:49:42,079
on intent um there's no way you can draw

1256
00:49:47,750 --> 00:49:44,800
the line on and make a uh

1257
00:49:49,990 --> 00:49:47,760
a definitive statement on threat to

1258
00:49:52,230 --> 00:49:50,000
national security but the only way to

1259
00:49:54,230 --> 00:49:52,240
get uh to figure out the intent is to

1260
00:49:55,829 --> 00:49:54,240
look at it to study it you know we have

1261
00:49:57,750 --> 00:49:55,839
friends and colleagues

1262
00:49:59,829 --> 00:49:57,760
who are working with congress trying to

1263
00:50:01,829 --> 00:49:59,839
get some kind of a program enacted so

1264
00:50:04,069 --> 00:50:01,839
that there's you know a way to move the

1265
00:50:05,910 --> 00:50:04,079
topic forward and they are definitely

1266
00:50:07,910 --> 00:50:05,920
concerned about the woo factor oh my

1267
00:50:09,990 --> 00:50:07,920
gosh you guys putting this book out it's

1268
00:50:12,309 --> 00:50:10,000
terrible for us to mix in poltergeists

1269
00:50:14,630 --> 00:50:12,319
and bigfoot and all this weird stuff uh

1270
00:50:16,150 --> 00:50:14,640
hitchhikers all that oh it's terrible

1271
00:50:18,390 --> 00:50:16,160
it's going to make it so much harder for

1272
00:50:20,150 --> 00:50:18,400
us to sell this to congress well you

1273
00:50:22,470 --> 00:50:20,160
know what are we supposed to do be quiet

1274
00:50:24,630 --> 00:50:22,480
about it keep it secret the fact is this

1275
00:50:26,870 --> 00:50:24,640
happened it was investigated by this

1276
00:50:28,150 --> 00:50:26,880
program with tax dollars

1277
00:50:31,030 --> 00:50:28,160
and they came up with some pretty

1278
00:50:33,750 --> 00:50:31,040
amazing case cases in case information

1279
00:50:35,750 --> 00:50:33,760
any incident reports a gigantic database

1280
00:50:37,670 --> 00:50:35,760
you can't just look at

1281
00:50:40,069 --> 00:50:37,680
objects in the sky and figure out what

1282
00:50:41,990 --> 00:50:40,079
their intent are unless you see how they

1283
00:50:44,150 --> 00:50:42,000
interact with humans which is what these

1284
00:50:45,910 --> 00:50:44,160
guys did and you can't just pretend the

1285
00:50:48,710 --> 00:50:45,920
study didn't happen because it might

1286
00:50:50,790 --> 00:50:48,720
upset somebody or or make it harder for

1287
00:50:53,270 --> 00:50:50,800
them to sell something to congress this

1288
00:50:55,430 --> 00:50:53,280
stuff happened the program was real they

1289
00:50:57,589 --> 00:50:55,440
really did investigate this the facts

1290
00:50:58,950 --> 00:50:57,599
are in that database you can't pretend

1291
00:51:00,549 --> 00:50:58,960
it didn't exist and you also can't

1292
00:51:02,710 --> 00:51:00,559
pretend that you're going to pass a

1293
00:51:04,549 --> 00:51:02,720
program that only looks at sensor data

1294
00:51:06,309 --> 00:51:04,559
and things in the sky and be able to

1295
00:51:07,750 --> 00:51:06,319
figure out the big picture tens of

1296
00:51:10,069 --> 00:51:07,760
millions of people around the world are

1297
00:51:11,589 --> 00:51:10,079
interested in ufos maybe some of them

1298
00:51:14,630 --> 00:51:11,599
are just interested from a purely

1299
00:51:16,390 --> 00:51:14,640
scientific point of view are we alone is

1300
00:51:18,230 --> 00:51:16,400
there somebody else out there the real

1301
00:51:19,910 --> 00:51:18,240
question is is there somebody else out

1302
00:51:22,230 --> 00:51:19,920
there and what do they think about us

1303
00:51:24,390 --> 00:51:22,240
what's their intent regarding us how do

1304
00:51:26,390 --> 00:51:24,400
they interact with us why are they here

1305
00:51:28,390 --> 00:51:26,400
those are the big questions you can't

1306
00:51:29,750 --> 00:51:28,400
just do that and get an answer to it by

1307
00:51:31,190 --> 00:51:29,760
studying the craft that they're flying

1308
00:51:34,309 --> 00:51:31,200
around in you've got to look at the big

1309
00:51:36,069 --> 00:51:34,319
picture so i understand that politically

1310
00:51:37,670 --> 00:51:36,079
it might create problems for people who

1311
00:51:40,150 --> 00:51:37,680
are trying to convince congress to

1312
00:51:41,829 --> 00:51:40,160
approve a program but you have to look

1313
00:51:43,750 --> 00:51:41,839
at the the truth and you have to follow

1314
00:51:46,150 --> 00:51:43,760
where it is where it leads you know the

1315
00:51:47,910 --> 00:51:46,160
the dia or some of these intel guys that

1316
00:51:50,150 --> 00:51:47,920
killed assaf

1317
00:51:52,470 --> 00:51:50,160
had that kind of a narrow view the dia

1318
00:51:53,750 --> 00:51:52,480
initially approved the program they knew

1319
00:51:55,270 --> 00:51:53,760
it was going to do they knew it was

1320
00:51:56,870 --> 00:51:55,280
going to look at the big picture no

1321
00:51:58,790 --> 00:51:56,880
matter how weird it got and then

1322
00:52:00,390 --> 00:51:58,800
leadership changed and the new guys came

1323
00:52:01,990 --> 00:52:00,400
in and they knew about the flying saucer

1324
00:52:04,549 --> 00:52:02,000
part of it and then they saw this other

1325
00:52:06,390 --> 00:52:04,559
stuff and oh my god poltergeist this has

1326
00:52:08,309 --> 00:52:06,400
got to be satanic we got to put it into

1327
00:52:10,549 --> 00:52:08,319
this because it's invoking the devil

1328
00:52:12,549 --> 00:52:10,559
it's bringing uh demonic forces into our

1329
00:52:14,630 --> 00:52:12,559
world that's preposterous they're

1330
00:52:16,790 --> 00:52:14,640
already here assuming they are demonic

1331
00:52:18,549 --> 00:52:16,800
they're already here so by not studying

1332
00:52:20,150 --> 00:52:18,559
them you don't make them go away you

1333
00:52:21,990 --> 00:52:20,160
don't by pretending they're not there

1334
00:52:24,309 --> 00:52:22,000
you don't solve this problem you have to

1335
00:52:26,150 --> 00:52:24,319
look at the evidence where it leads

1336
00:52:28,549 --> 00:52:26,160
and it you know people will say well

1337
00:52:31,589 --> 00:52:28,559
skinwalker skinwalker ranch has all that

1338
00:52:33,109 --> 00:52:31,599
weird stuff ufos are separate but has as

1339
00:52:35,109 --> 00:52:33,119
column has pointed out in interviews

1340
00:52:37,670 --> 00:52:35,119
there are nuts and bolts crap sightings

1341
00:52:39,670 --> 00:52:37,680
metallic craft at skinwalker which me

1342
00:52:41,990 --> 00:52:39,680
which makes me think it's either all

1343
00:52:43,510 --> 00:52:42,000
connected or whatever is that the ranch

1344
00:52:46,309 --> 00:52:43,520
is trying to mimic what else is going on

1345
00:52:48,710 --> 00:52:46,319
in the world to distract us or to uh

1346
00:52:50,150 --> 00:52:48,720
trick us whatever um but

1347
00:52:52,230 --> 00:52:50,160
colin you spoke about your sighting can

1348
00:52:54,309 --> 00:52:52,240
you tell us specifically what kind of

1349
00:52:56,870 --> 00:52:54,319
sighting like how close the craft was to

1350
00:52:57,589 --> 00:52:56,880
you at skinwalker

1351
00:53:01,829 --> 00:52:57,599
well

1352
00:53:03,829 --> 00:53:01,839
i i had several uh several different uh

1353
00:53:05,829 --> 00:53:03,839
sightings um

1354
00:53:07,589 --> 00:53:05,839
but i think the one you're referring to

1355
00:53:10,150 --> 00:53:07,599
is when when

1356
00:53:11,910 --> 00:53:10,160
this was very shortly within two months

1357
00:53:16,630 --> 00:53:11,920
after robert bigelow had purchased

1358
00:53:19,589 --> 00:53:16,640
skinwalker ranch it was november of 1996

1359
00:53:21,990 --> 00:53:19,599
and i was standing uh outside the what

1360
00:53:25,190 --> 00:53:22,000
had just been sort of designated the

1361
00:53:26,630 --> 00:53:25,200
command and control trailer uh which was

1362
00:53:29,910 --> 00:53:26,640
close to

1363
00:53:32,150 --> 00:53:29,920
homestead one on skinwalker ranch

1364
00:53:35,270 --> 00:53:32,160
and um

1365
00:53:38,069 --> 00:53:35,280
right out of nowhere um that came right

1366
00:53:40,870 --> 00:53:38,079
over uh skinwalker ridge which was a

1367
00:53:43,829 --> 00:53:40,880
ridge the sort of the defining ridge on

1368
00:53:46,630 --> 00:53:43,839
the north end of the of the property uh

1369
00:53:47,829 --> 00:53:46,640
this object came came over that was

1370
00:53:51,990 --> 00:53:47,839
traveling

1371
00:53:55,670 --> 00:53:52,000
um probably as fast as uh you know

1372
00:53:58,069 --> 00:53:55,680
i see i see a lot of f-18s and f-16s

1373
00:54:00,390 --> 00:53:58,079
traveling around around the nellis air

1374
00:54:02,870 --> 00:54:00,400
force base here in las vegas it was

1375
00:54:05,109 --> 00:54:02,880
traveling as fast as a fighter jet it

1376
00:54:07,349 --> 00:54:05,119
was completely silent

1377
00:54:08,549 --> 00:54:07,359
it was nighttime so it was impossible to

1378
00:54:11,270 --> 00:54:08,559
tell

1379
00:54:13,910 --> 00:54:11,280
how low it was but it what it seemed

1380
00:54:16,309 --> 00:54:13,920
from my perspective it seemed low i

1381
00:54:18,950 --> 00:54:16,319
could see a structure behind the light

1382
00:54:20,470 --> 00:54:18,960
it came right over me uh and i was

1383
00:54:22,870 --> 00:54:20,480
standing you know right beside this

1384
00:54:25,750 --> 00:54:22,880
other person who also saw it it came

1385
00:54:27,349 --> 00:54:25,760
over and per and made a perfect really

1386
00:54:30,309 --> 00:54:27,359
tight u-turn

1387
00:54:32,870 --> 00:54:30,319
right over me um and again completely

1388
00:54:35,109 --> 00:54:32,880
silent and then went right back over

1389
00:54:36,950 --> 00:54:35,119
skinwalker ridge headed north over

1390
00:54:39,670 --> 00:54:36,960
skinwalker ridge disappeared behind the

1391
00:54:42,870 --> 00:54:39,680
ridge it happened um you know

1392
00:54:44,710 --> 00:54:42,880
very very quickly but it was um it was

1393
00:54:47,190 --> 00:54:44,720
sort of a dramatic

1394
00:54:49,990 --> 00:54:47,200
silence you know that there was no

1395
00:54:52,470 --> 00:54:50,000
absolutely no sound associated with the

1396
00:54:54,789 --> 00:54:52,480
object that was kind of the most spooky

1397
00:54:56,390 --> 00:54:54,799
part of it um and you know like i said

1398
00:54:57,270 --> 00:54:56,400
it disappeared right over skin walker

1399
00:54:59,109 --> 00:54:57,280
ridge

1400
00:55:01,589 --> 00:54:59,119
but you know just going back to the sort

1401
00:55:04,870 --> 00:55:01,599
of uh the strange

1402
00:55:06,870 --> 00:55:04,880
sort of uh accretion of unusual

1403
00:55:08,630 --> 00:55:06,880
phenomena

1404
00:55:11,190 --> 00:55:08,640
while we are at minutes we had the good

1405
00:55:14,309 --> 00:55:11,200
fortune of interacting with captain

1406
00:55:16,950 --> 00:55:14,319
keith wolverton who did enormous amounts

1407
00:55:20,390 --> 00:55:16,960
of leg work up around maelstrom air

1408
00:55:23,670 --> 00:55:20,400
force base in the late 1970s muslim air

1409
00:55:27,270 --> 00:55:23,680
force base was getting besieged by

1410
00:55:29,430 --> 00:55:27,280
nuts and bolts ufos that were appearing

1411
00:55:32,150 --> 00:55:29,440
over the base fighters were being

1412
00:55:34,950 --> 00:55:32,160
launched to intercept them um captain

1413
00:55:36,950 --> 00:55:34,960
wolverton actually got so well known in

1414
00:55:38,069 --> 00:55:36,960
the area that the air force base would

1415
00:55:42,549 --> 00:55:38,079
call him

1416
00:55:45,270 --> 00:55:42,559
to um to report sightings so his he

1417
00:55:47,109 --> 00:55:45,280
his police officers were in the area all

1418
00:55:50,069 --> 00:55:47,119
the time

1419
00:55:52,950 --> 00:55:50,079
long story short um all of the

1420
00:55:54,150 --> 00:55:52,960
interviews that uh captain wolverton had

1421
00:55:57,510 --> 00:55:54,160
conducted

1422
00:56:01,270 --> 00:55:57,520
nids luckily uh got got copies even that

1423
00:56:02,870 --> 00:56:01,280
that the blotters from the police

1424
00:56:04,150 --> 00:56:02,880
initial reports

1425
00:56:07,430 --> 00:56:04,160
but

1426
00:56:10,630 --> 00:56:07,440
there was an enormous amount of unusual

1427
00:56:11,750 --> 00:56:10,640
activity in the homes of people who were

1428
00:56:13,910 --> 00:56:11,760
looking

1429
00:56:16,789 --> 00:56:13,920
seeing these these

1430
00:56:20,390 --> 00:56:16,799
objects that were interacting around the

1431
00:56:21,349 --> 00:56:20,400
air force base there was a an absolute

1432
00:56:22,549 --> 00:56:21,359
um

1433
00:56:25,589 --> 00:56:22,559
i would say

1434
00:56:27,030 --> 00:56:25,599
epidemic of unusual activity unusual

1435
00:56:29,670 --> 00:56:27,040
creatures

1436
00:56:31,990 --> 00:56:29,680
it was almost like skinwalker ranch had

1437
00:56:34,309 --> 00:56:32,000
been transported up to

1438
00:56:36,390 --> 00:56:34,319
uh around um

1439
00:56:39,430 --> 00:56:36,400
milestone air force base for a

1440
00:56:41,510 --> 00:56:39,440
four-month period in the late 1970s and

1441
00:56:43,829 --> 00:56:41,520
they were absolutely besieged by all

1442
00:56:47,349 --> 00:56:43,839
this activity and then it died down and

1443
00:56:49,829 --> 00:56:47,359
went away but um we got access to

1444
00:56:52,549 --> 00:56:49,839
literally hundreds of these reports from

1445
00:56:55,589 --> 00:56:52,559
captain wolverton so again you have the

1446
00:56:58,789 --> 00:56:55,599
juxtaposition of these quote-unquote

1447
00:56:59,589 --> 00:56:58,799
metallic objects that are being see seen

1448
00:57:02,230 --> 00:56:59,599
by

1449
00:57:04,630 --> 00:57:02,240
personnel on the air force base fighters

1450
00:57:06,789 --> 00:57:04,640
are being launched to intercept and then

1451
00:57:09,109 --> 00:57:06,799
around the air force base in a 20 mile

1452
00:57:12,069 --> 00:57:09,119
radius around the air force base people

1453
00:57:14,630 --> 00:57:12,079
are being besieged by these unusual

1454
00:57:17,829 --> 00:57:14,640
activity and again i it comes back to my

1455
00:57:20,950 --> 00:57:17,839
main point this is not an effect just

1456
00:57:23,670 --> 00:57:20,960
primarily of skinwalker ranch it is not

1457
00:57:25,990 --> 00:57:23,680
some sort of minor sort of aberration

1458
00:57:29,270 --> 00:57:26,000
that can be put in the box and forgotten

1459
00:57:31,910 --> 00:57:29,280
about it actually happens an awful lot

1460
00:57:34,069 --> 00:57:31,920
um and it happens particularly

1461
00:57:37,670 --> 00:57:34,079
when people take the time and the

1462
00:57:41,109 --> 00:57:37,680
resources to investigate these cases for

1463
00:57:43,670 --> 00:57:41,119
long periods of time

1464
00:57:45,750 --> 00:57:43,680
do either of you

1465
00:57:47,750 --> 00:57:45,760
have any information

1466
00:57:49,349 --> 00:57:47,760
related to the tic tac case that people

1467
00:57:50,549 --> 00:57:49,359
don't know about that would be

1468
00:57:52,150 --> 00:57:50,559
surprising

1469
00:57:53,990 --> 00:57:52,160
because i know asap which i did not know

1470
00:57:55,670 --> 00:57:54,000
asap i always thought it was a tip until

1471
00:57:56,950 --> 00:57:55,680
the book came out is there anything

1472
00:57:59,030 --> 00:57:56,960
about that case

1473
00:58:00,470 --> 00:57:59,040
that is just surprising that the general

1474
00:58:02,309 --> 00:58:00,480
public doesn't know about either one of

1475
00:58:05,990 --> 00:58:02,319
you

1476
00:58:08,150 --> 00:58:06,000
touched on is that that was the tic tac

1477
00:58:10,470 --> 00:58:08,160
case was an awesome case that started

1478
00:58:12,630 --> 00:58:10,480
with those guys and it just uh column 10

1479
00:58:14,870 --> 00:58:12,640
tell the story about how he first heard

1480
00:58:17,270 --> 00:58:14,880
it during a job interview the

1481
00:58:19,430 --> 00:58:17,280
a key job interview he did for bass i

1482
00:58:21,510 --> 00:58:19,440
think one of the first if not the first

1483
00:58:23,510 --> 00:58:21,520
and it was just sort of an aside mention

1484
00:58:26,549 --> 00:58:23,520
at the end of the conversation

1485
00:58:29,670 --> 00:58:26,559
and that set off uh inquiries from the

1486
00:58:31,190 --> 00:58:29,680
las vegas side of asap to the pentagon

1487
00:58:33,349 --> 00:58:31,200
side of asap and it began an

1488
00:58:36,230 --> 00:58:33,359
investigation that eventually came back

1489
00:58:37,910 --> 00:58:36,240
it's the 13-page report that that i was

1490
00:58:40,390 --> 00:58:37,920
able to make public a couple years ago

1491
00:58:41,990 --> 00:58:40,400
joe that you're familiar with and then i

1492
00:58:44,870 --> 00:58:42,000
think a lot of that information formed

1493
00:58:47,430 --> 00:58:44,880
the basis of what atep leader did with

1494
00:58:50,309 --> 00:58:47,440
that that they presented to

1495
00:58:51,750 --> 00:58:50,319
the new york times so the genesis of uh

1496
00:58:54,150 --> 00:58:51,760
that whole story maybe the most

1497
00:58:56,309 --> 00:58:54,160
important ufo case of all time in the

1498
00:58:58,870 --> 00:58:56,319
sense of the effects that it had began

1499
00:59:00,950 --> 00:58:58,880
with asap it began with bass not with

1500
00:59:03,270 --> 00:59:00,960
atip not with the new york times but

1501
00:59:04,710 --> 00:59:03,280
these guys but did they have are there

1502
00:59:06,950 --> 00:59:04,720
any other encounters that we don't know

1503
00:59:08,630 --> 00:59:06,960
about i know the douglas curse story

1504
00:59:10,789 --> 00:59:08,640
curse story is an amazing story because

1505
00:59:12,309 --> 00:59:10,799
it's just synchronicity that kurth winds

1506
00:59:14,470 --> 00:59:12,319
up on your doorstep column the first

1507
00:59:16,230 --> 00:59:14,480
person you interview right

1508
00:59:17,990 --> 00:59:16,240
one that tells basically tells you about

1509
00:59:19,030 --> 00:59:18,000
tic tac did you think anything of that

1510
00:59:20,710 --> 00:59:19,040
at the time where you're like all right

1511
00:59:22,150 --> 00:59:20,720
it's an interesting case did you know

1512
00:59:24,549 --> 00:59:22,160
when he told you the details of the tic

1513
00:59:26,710 --> 00:59:24,559
tac case well remember you know this was

1514
00:59:28,950 --> 00:59:26,720
at the very beginning of the asap

1515
00:59:30,789 --> 00:59:28,960
contract it was like i i think i'd

1516
00:59:32,390 --> 00:59:30,799
started interviewing people

1517
00:59:34,870 --> 00:59:32,400
only a couple of weeks

1518
00:59:37,990 --> 00:59:34,880
prior to that and he was the first guy

1519
00:59:40,150 --> 00:59:38,000
in the door so it it certainly seemed

1520
00:59:43,430 --> 00:59:40,160
from his description in the interview

1521
00:59:45,670 --> 00:59:43,440
that this was a case of very very much a

1522
00:59:48,150 --> 00:59:45,680
case to be followed up on but we were

1523
00:59:50,630 --> 00:59:48,160
right at the start of the asap contract

1524
00:59:53,030 --> 00:59:50,640
so we didn't really know how this whole

1525
00:59:55,990 --> 00:59:53,040
thing was going to unfold and naturally

1526
01:00:00,230 --> 00:59:56,000
we did jump on the uh on the tic tac

1527
01:00:02,710 --> 01:00:00,240
case um as george said we we uh we

1528
01:00:06,230 --> 01:00:02,720
communicated with lukowski immediately

1529
01:00:09,510 --> 01:00:06,240
the catski called up axelrod and axelrod

1530
01:00:11,750 --> 01:00:09,520
assembled a team of people um and and

1531
01:00:16,309 --> 01:00:11,760
went out and sort of investigated this

1532
01:00:18,789 --> 01:00:16,319
case and submitted a um a summary report

1533
01:00:20,710 --> 01:00:18,799
to the defense intelligence agency that

1534
01:00:23,270 --> 01:00:20,720
report was sitting in the intelli

1535
01:00:25,510 --> 01:00:23,280
defense intelligence agency for many

1536
01:00:29,270 --> 01:00:25,520
years before the new york times broke

1537
01:00:32,710 --> 01:00:29,280
this whole story and it's kind of ironic

1538
01:00:35,190 --> 01:00:32,720
that the ossop case uh was being briefed

1539
01:00:37,190 --> 01:00:35,200
to the senate armed services committee

1540
01:00:41,109 --> 01:00:37,200
and the various senate intelligence

1541
01:00:43,670 --> 01:00:41,119
committees and the the asap tic-tac case

1542
01:00:45,910 --> 01:00:43,680
was being used to bolster the

1543
01:00:48,470 --> 01:00:45,920
credibility of the entire you know

1544
01:00:50,309 --> 01:00:48,480
phenomenon and it went a long way to

1545
01:00:52,789 --> 01:00:50,319
bolstering the credibility of the entire

1546
01:00:55,349 --> 01:00:52,799
phenomenon because you know these were

1547
01:00:58,230 --> 01:00:55,359
these were you know

1548
01:01:00,150 --> 01:00:58,240
pilots that were beyond reproach and

1549
01:01:02,150 --> 01:01:00,160
they interviewed with the senate armed

1550
01:01:04,150 --> 01:01:02,160
services committee and the senate

1551
01:01:07,510 --> 01:01:04,160
intelligence committee committee

1552
01:01:10,549 --> 01:01:07,520
but you know the tic tac case one was

1553
01:01:12,470 --> 01:01:10,559
one of over a hundred reports on

1554
01:01:14,630 --> 01:01:12,480
different cases different aspects of

1555
01:01:17,750 --> 01:01:14,640
technology different aspects of human

1556
01:01:20,549 --> 01:01:17,760
effects that ossops submitted to defense

1557
01:01:24,150 --> 01:01:20,559
intelligence agency but the tic tac case

1558
01:01:27,990 --> 01:01:24,160
itself an asap case was actually what

1559
01:01:30,470 --> 01:01:28,000
sort of um really got atip on the radar

1560
01:01:32,870 --> 01:01:30,480
and really got momentum going in terms

1561
01:01:35,430 --> 01:01:32,880
of um the the

1562
01:01:37,190 --> 01:01:35,440
index of credibility so to speak with

1563
01:01:39,510 --> 01:01:37,200
the senate armed services committee and

1564
01:01:42,789 --> 01:01:39,520
the senate intelligence committee so um

1565
01:01:44,549 --> 01:01:42,799
it was an index case undeservedly so

1566
01:01:46,390 --> 01:01:44,559
let me ask i'll answer it this way joe

1567
01:01:49,030 --> 01:01:46,400
you're asking are there other cases like

1568
01:01:52,870 --> 01:01:49,040
tech tack or similar military encounters

1569
01:01:53,829 --> 01:01:52,880
that osap investigated the answer is yes

1570
01:01:56,950 --> 01:01:53,839
okay

1571
01:01:58,470 --> 01:01:56,960
thank you thanks to both of you um

1572
01:01:59,990 --> 01:01:58,480
so

1573
01:02:02,549 --> 01:02:00,000
in the book

1574
01:02:04,069 --> 01:02:02,559
one of my favorite parts and i want to

1575
01:02:07,910 --> 01:02:04,079
share this

1576
01:02:10,390 --> 01:02:07,920
so people can read along it's about

1577
01:02:11,910 --> 01:02:10,400
doctor kat lakatsky's

1578
01:02:14,470 --> 01:02:11,920
briefing

1579
01:02:16,309 --> 01:02:14,480
at dhs and i know colin you had your own

1580
01:02:18,069 --> 01:02:16,319
briefing that you gave in a skiff and

1581
01:02:19,510 --> 01:02:18,079
then he had his i'll just read quickly

1582
01:02:20,870 --> 01:02:19,520
and if you guys can expand upon what

1583
01:02:22,390 --> 01:02:20,880
else you can add

1584
01:02:23,829 --> 01:02:22,400
an hour into the briefing technically

1585
01:02:25,910 --> 01:02:23,839
when the meeting should have ended

1586
01:02:28,069 --> 01:02:25,920
lickatsky abandoned all caution and the

1587
01:02:30,150 --> 01:02:28,079
floodgates opened what followed was

1588
01:02:32,630 --> 01:02:30,160
arguably one of the most astounding and

1589
01:02:35,190 --> 01:02:32,640
riveting briefings of nuts and bolts

1590
01:02:37,829 --> 01:02:35,200
uaps paranormal phenomena poltergeist

1591
01:02:39,589 --> 01:02:37,839
activity and more ever heard in a united

1592
01:02:41,109 --> 01:02:39,599
states government skiff the bizarre

1593
01:02:43,349 --> 01:02:41,119
creatures that were encountered on and

1594
01:02:45,430 --> 01:02:43,359
around skinwalker ranch were described

1595
01:02:47,589 --> 01:02:45,440
in a screw excruciating detail and

1596
01:02:49,750 --> 01:02:47,599
lethcatsky recounted cases involving

1597
01:02:51,430 --> 01:02:49,760
multiple encounters with blue orbs as

1598
01:02:53,750 --> 01:02:51,440
well as other details of uap

1599
01:02:55,750 --> 01:02:53,760
investigations that were extracted from

1600
01:02:57,829 --> 01:02:55,760
the detailed monthly reports that bass

1601
01:02:59,430 --> 01:02:57,839
had submitted to dia

1602
01:03:01,109 --> 01:02:59,440
what else can you guys add because that

1603
01:03:02,870 --> 01:03:01,119
when i read that i'm like oh my that's

1604
01:03:05,190 --> 01:03:02,880
amazing that that took place and he had

1605
01:03:07,349 --> 01:03:05,200
the guts to do that because

1606
01:03:12,549 --> 01:03:07,359
i would think those people

1607
01:03:30,150 --> 01:03:13,589
i

1608
01:03:33,910 --> 01:03:30,160
and they both told me that they were

1609
01:03:36,789 --> 01:03:33,920
absolutely shell-shocked by the level of

1610
01:03:37,829 --> 01:03:36,799
detail and the level of sort of it was

1611
01:03:41,670 --> 01:03:37,839
like a

1612
01:03:44,390 --> 01:03:41,680
a rolling series of uh of cyclones that

1613
01:03:47,029 --> 01:03:44,400
were hitting them um because you know

1614
01:03:50,470 --> 01:03:47,039
they were expecting a sort of a short

1615
01:03:52,549 --> 01:03:50,480
um standard briefing from uh you know

1616
01:03:54,789 --> 01:03:52,559
defense intelligence

1617
01:03:57,349 --> 01:03:54,799
official i mean everybody knows what

1618
01:03:59,270 --> 01:03:57,359
they usually comprise of they're very

1619
01:04:01,910 --> 01:03:59,280
short sort of uh

1620
01:04:03,750 --> 01:04:01,920
powerpoint presentations that have a

1621
01:04:06,150 --> 01:04:03,760
beginning a middle and an end it's very

1622
01:04:08,789 --> 01:04:06,160
it's all very predictable um your

1623
01:04:11,190 --> 01:04:08,799
standard briefing but this went so far

1624
01:04:12,630 --> 01:04:11,200
beyond the briefing that and it went you

1625
01:04:14,789 --> 01:04:12,640
know a couple of hours beyond the

1626
01:04:18,150 --> 01:04:14,799
briefing that both of these people who

1627
01:04:21,029 --> 01:04:18,160
were incidentally very very high level

1628
01:04:23,670 --> 01:04:21,039
uh people who were very associated with

1629
01:04:26,789 --> 01:04:23,680
the special access programs

1630
01:04:30,150 --> 01:04:26,799
um and they were very shocked by what

1631
01:04:33,109 --> 01:04:32,150
anything to add to that george we can

1632
01:04:35,910 --> 01:04:33,119
move on

1633
01:04:37,270 --> 01:04:35,920
no you can that's good um so i want to

1634
01:04:38,710 --> 01:04:37,280
get your takes and i know you've spoken

1635
01:04:39,910 --> 01:04:38,720
about it before but

1636
01:04:41,349 --> 01:04:39,920
what do you think you know thinking

1637
01:04:42,710 --> 01:04:41,359
about when you first got into this and

1638
01:04:44,470 --> 01:04:42,720
calm i never heard how you first got

1639
01:04:45,510 --> 01:04:44,480
into this if you can add that in what

1640
01:04:47,510 --> 01:04:45,520
are we dealing with how does

1641
01:04:48,470 --> 01:04:47,520
consciousness play consciousness play a

1642
01:04:50,309 --> 01:04:48,480
role

1643
01:04:52,230 --> 01:04:50,319
have we been manipulated over the years

1644
01:04:54,230 --> 01:04:52,240
for good for bad just your opinions and

1645
01:04:56,950 --> 01:04:54,240
speculation on that both of you you can

1646
01:05:00,549 --> 01:04:58,470
i'd like to hear colin tell you the

1647
01:05:02,549 --> 01:05:00,559
story about how he got started

1648
01:05:05,349 --> 01:05:02,559
okay well

1649
01:05:07,510 --> 01:05:05,359
well i mean i got started in on two

1650
01:05:08,789 --> 01:05:07,520
different levels i guess one the first

1651
01:05:11,349 --> 01:05:08,799
one was

1652
01:05:14,230 --> 01:05:11,359
i was working at the national jewish

1653
01:05:15,349 --> 01:05:14,240
center for immunology in denver which is

1654
01:05:17,510 --> 01:05:15,359
a very

1655
01:05:19,670 --> 01:05:17,520
um august

1656
01:05:22,710 --> 01:05:19,680
immunology research institute one of the

1657
01:05:26,390 --> 01:05:22,720
top institutes in the country um

1658
01:05:27,510 --> 01:05:26,400
and um i happened to see a

1659
01:05:30,470 --> 01:05:27,520
um

1660
01:05:31,670 --> 01:05:30,480
you know a full-page ad in science

1661
01:05:34,470 --> 01:05:31,680
magazine

1662
01:05:37,510 --> 01:05:34,480
that was looking for people

1663
01:05:40,150 --> 01:05:37,520
to research the origin and evolution of

1664
01:05:41,990 --> 01:05:40,160
human consciousness in the universe and

1665
01:05:43,430 --> 01:05:42,000
i don't know how often you read science

1666
01:05:46,390 --> 01:05:43,440
magazine but

1667
01:05:48,789 --> 01:05:46,400
seeing that in in in one of the top

1668
01:05:51,190 --> 01:05:48,799
scientific publications in the world

1669
01:05:53,349 --> 01:05:51,200
kind of took me aback so the first thing

1670
01:05:54,789 --> 01:05:53,359
i did was picked up the telephone and i

1671
01:05:56,470 --> 01:05:54,799
you know i said

1672
01:05:59,270 --> 01:05:56,480
uh i i sort of

1673
01:06:01,510 --> 01:05:59,280
um put in an application just to see how

1674
01:06:03,190 --> 01:06:01,520
this whole thing went

1675
01:06:05,190 --> 01:06:03,200
turned out that um

1676
01:06:07,829 --> 01:06:05,200
two weeks later i was on a plane to las

1677
01:06:11,910 --> 01:06:07,839
vegas i sat down with robert bigelow in

1678
01:06:12,360 --> 01:06:11,920
an interview and this was july of 1996.

1679
01:06:13,589 --> 01:06:12,370
um

1680
01:06:15,750 --> 01:06:13,599
[Music]

1681
01:06:17,430 --> 01:06:15,760
and he went through the whole uh what

1682
01:06:18,870 --> 01:06:17,440
the scope of what national institute for

1683
01:06:20,309 --> 01:06:18,880
discovery science

1684
01:06:23,109 --> 01:06:20,319
was going to do

1685
01:06:25,829 --> 01:06:23,119
and uh you know i was so fascinated by

1686
01:06:28,309 --> 01:06:25,839
that the whole prospect of

1687
01:06:30,950 --> 01:06:28,319
the study of anomalies

1688
01:06:32,710 --> 01:06:30,960
as being a driver for the discovery

1689
01:06:35,029 --> 01:06:32,720
process in science

1690
01:06:37,190 --> 01:06:35,039
you know i mean thomas kuhn is it makes

1691
01:06:39,190 --> 01:06:37,200
it makes a a huge

1692
01:06:41,910 --> 01:06:39,200
uh deal of this in his book book

1693
01:06:44,150 --> 01:06:41,920
structure of scientific revolutions you

1694
01:06:46,870 --> 01:06:44,160
know it the study of anomalies is

1695
01:06:48,870 --> 01:06:46,880
fundamental to the discovery process and

1696
01:06:50,630 --> 01:06:48,880
science so national institute for

1697
01:06:53,190 --> 01:06:50,640
discovery science

1698
01:06:56,390 --> 01:06:53,200
attracted me for that purpose because

1699
01:06:57,990 --> 01:06:56,400
um you know as part of um

1700
01:07:01,430 --> 01:06:58,000
as part of

1701
01:07:04,710 --> 01:07:01,440
creation of new scientific avenues or

1702
01:07:06,789 --> 01:07:04,720
even scientific areas of study studying

1703
01:07:09,029 --> 01:07:06,799
anomalies is fundamental that that

1704
01:07:12,069 --> 01:07:09,039
process so that's how i got started in

1705
01:07:13,750 --> 01:07:12,079
this whole process but i had i had left

1706
01:07:16,950 --> 01:07:13,760
national institute for discovery science

1707
01:07:19,990 --> 01:07:16,960
in 2004 to take a position in the

1708
01:07:22,789 --> 01:07:20,000
biotechnol technology institute

1709
01:07:25,510 --> 01:07:22,799
of uh in uh in

1710
01:07:27,990 --> 01:07:25,520
san francisco as a biotech company and

1711
01:07:30,150 --> 01:07:28,000
uh we were studying

1712
01:07:33,190 --> 01:07:30,160
we were doing drug discovery

1713
01:07:35,910 --> 01:07:33,200
for viruses that the

1714
01:07:38,150 --> 01:07:35,920
department of defense was interested in

1715
01:07:41,670 --> 01:07:38,160
so i was in the middle of molecular

1716
01:07:44,230 --> 01:07:41,680
biology studies on multiple different

1717
01:07:46,870 --> 01:07:44,240
viruses that were of interest to the

1718
01:07:49,270 --> 01:07:46,880
department of defense when out of this

1719
01:07:51,109 --> 01:07:49,280
the blue i got a a phone call from

1720
01:07:52,789 --> 01:07:51,119
robert bigelow saying

1721
01:07:55,349 --> 01:07:52,799
you know there's a

1722
01:07:56,870 --> 01:07:55,359
potential for a united states government

1723
01:07:58,789 --> 01:07:56,880
program

1724
01:08:01,829 --> 01:07:58,799
that has to do with

1725
01:08:04,150 --> 01:08:01,839
really getting in deep into

1726
01:08:08,150 --> 01:08:04,160
the nuts and bolts and also human

1727
01:08:11,029 --> 01:08:08,160
effects of of ufos so

1728
01:08:14,630 --> 01:08:11,039
long story short second time i left the

1729
01:08:17,189 --> 01:08:14,640
mainstream science career um to go

1730
01:08:20,390 --> 01:08:17,199
look at the um

1731
01:08:23,030 --> 01:08:20,400
at the sort of uh the ufo topic but this

1732
01:08:26,070 --> 01:08:23,040
time as a result of a

1733
01:08:28,789 --> 01:08:26,080
um a defense intelligence

1734
01:08:31,590 --> 01:08:28,799
agency program that was going to study

1735
01:08:33,669 --> 01:08:31,600
this in-depth so it was kind of like a

1736
01:08:35,669 --> 01:08:33,679
an offer i could not refuse

1737
01:08:38,309 --> 01:08:35,679
because the needs experience had been

1738
01:08:39,669 --> 01:08:38,319
extremely enlightening

1739
01:08:41,430 --> 01:08:39,679
and um

1740
01:08:43,349 --> 01:08:41,440
in hindsight the

1741
01:08:46,630 --> 01:08:43,359
ossop experience was even more

1742
01:08:49,430 --> 01:08:46,640
enlightening i think i've learned over

1743
01:08:50,550 --> 01:08:49,440
i've been looking at this for 25 years

1744
01:08:53,510 --> 01:08:50,560
now

1745
01:08:56,550 --> 01:08:53,520
that the so-called uap phenomena ufo

1746
01:08:57,990 --> 01:08:56,560
phenomenon that um the more i get into

1747
01:09:01,590 --> 01:08:58,000
this whole thing

1748
01:09:02,470 --> 01:09:01,600
the more complex the more sophisticated

1749
01:09:04,870 --> 01:09:02,480
um

1750
01:09:07,910 --> 01:09:04,880
and the more challenging it becomes

1751
01:09:10,630 --> 01:09:07,920
because i don't think anybody has the

1752
01:09:13,349 --> 01:09:10,640
capability of um

1753
01:09:16,390 --> 01:09:13,359
of staying what the agenda of this

1754
01:09:18,309 --> 01:09:16,400
phenomenon might be or or you know what

1755
01:09:21,510 --> 01:09:18,319
what the or the intent of this

1756
01:09:22,550 --> 01:09:21,520
phenomenon it's all speculation because

1757
01:09:25,110 --> 01:09:22,560
um

1758
01:09:28,149 --> 01:09:25,120
you know the only way of getting

1759
01:09:30,950 --> 01:09:28,159
information on at this level is to

1760
01:09:33,430 --> 01:09:30,960
continue studying it so that's why

1761
01:09:36,470 --> 01:09:33,440
things like the the gila brand amendment

1762
01:09:38,950 --> 01:09:36,480
that came out what seven days ago um is

1763
01:09:42,309 --> 01:09:38,960
extremely heartening to me because

1764
01:09:44,630 --> 01:09:42,319
um if it turns out that you know a

1765
01:09:48,309 --> 01:09:44,640
program with that level of

1766
01:09:51,510 --> 01:09:48,319
sophistication is initiated in with the

1767
01:09:53,349 --> 01:09:51,520
united states government i think it does

1768
01:09:57,590 --> 01:09:53,359
you know have the capability of getting

1769
01:09:59,830 --> 01:09:57,600
answers um but you know um we'll see i i

1770
01:10:03,030 --> 01:09:59,840
don't know what the the whole process of

1771
01:10:04,870 --> 01:10:03,040
the national defense authorization act

1772
01:10:07,110 --> 01:10:04,880
is a very very

1773
01:10:09,669 --> 01:10:07,120
sort of lengthy process

1774
01:10:12,229 --> 01:10:09,679
where there's a lot of negotiation and

1775
01:10:15,110 --> 01:10:12,239
amendments and sort of insertions are

1776
01:10:17,750 --> 01:10:15,120
deleted etc so i don't know what the

1777
01:10:20,550 --> 01:10:17,760
endgame of this is but i do know that

1778
01:10:21,510 --> 01:10:20,560
behind the scenes the uh the task force

1779
01:10:26,870 --> 01:10:21,520
people

1780
01:10:29,669 --> 01:10:26,880
sophisticated thinkers they're not just

1781
01:10:32,470 --> 01:10:29,679
focused on you know the sensor driven

1782
01:10:34,390 --> 01:10:32,480
sort of uh you know meme they are

1783
01:10:36,709 --> 01:10:34,400
focused on an awful lot more than that

1784
01:10:39,350 --> 01:10:36,719
so they're easily capable of

1785
01:10:41,510 --> 01:10:39,360
assimilating a much more sophisticated

1786
01:10:43,830 --> 01:10:41,520
program

1787
01:10:45,590 --> 01:10:43,840
you know my origin story joe is you know

1788
01:10:48,709 --> 01:10:45,600
i'm looking back on it from the vantage

1789
01:10:51,110 --> 01:10:48,719
point of 32 or almost 33 years later

1790
01:10:53,030 --> 01:10:51,120
it's astonishing to me um all the things

1791
01:10:55,669 --> 01:10:53,040
that have happened and fell into place

1792
01:10:57,510 --> 01:10:55,679
and how any one little change along the

1793
01:10:59,590 --> 01:10:57,520
way would have changed so much you know

1794
01:11:01,910 --> 01:10:59,600
i've been privileged to be a fly on the

1795
01:11:04,470 --> 01:11:01,920
wall and get to know colin and dr

1796
01:11:07,189 --> 01:11:04,480
lakotsky and robert bigelow uh along the

1797
01:11:08,790 --> 01:11:07,199
way and and have had uh you know to be

1798
01:11:10,870 --> 01:11:08,800
able to listen to them and learn from

1799
01:11:14,709 --> 01:11:10,880
them but also to contribute along the

1800
01:11:17,030 --> 01:11:14,719
way you know and my beginning was 1989

1801
01:11:18,950 --> 01:11:17,040
it starts with an interest in lazar

1802
01:11:20,470 --> 01:11:18,960
and his story but to report that

1803
01:11:23,030 --> 01:11:20,480
correctly i had to learn the bigger

1804
01:11:24,790 --> 01:11:23,040
picture about ufos so for a period of

1805
01:11:26,470 --> 01:11:24,800
seven eight nine months i read

1806
01:11:28,950 --> 01:11:26,480
everything i interviewed people i went

1807
01:11:31,430 --> 01:11:28,960
to ufo conferences i met and in

1808
01:11:33,030 --> 01:11:31,440
interrogated ufo experts i was out in

1809
01:11:34,790 --> 01:11:33,040
the desert for

1810
01:11:37,430 --> 01:11:34,800
dozens and dozens of nights looking for

1811
01:11:39,030 --> 01:11:37,440
ufos i chased cattle mutilation cases

1812
01:11:40,950 --> 01:11:39,040
learned as much as i could in a short

1813
01:11:42,470 --> 01:11:40,960
period and along the way

1814
01:11:44,070 --> 01:11:42,480
i just couldn't help but want to tell

1815
01:11:46,229 --> 01:11:44,080
somebody about it the first person i

1816
01:11:48,149 --> 01:11:46,239
told outside of our newsroom was harry

1817
01:11:50,070 --> 01:11:48,159
reid and little did i know what that

1818
01:11:51,830 --> 01:11:50,080
would lead to later but i told him i was

1819
01:11:55,189 --> 01:11:51,840
working on this there was some secrets

1820
01:11:57,030 --> 01:11:55,199
about area 51 i had covered his 82 84

1821
01:11:59,189 --> 01:11:57,040
and 86 campaigns and i thought he'd want

1822
01:12:01,430 --> 01:11:59,199
to know and he did and little did i know

1823
01:12:02,550 --> 01:12:01,440
where that would lead you know 30 years

1824
01:12:06,870 --> 01:12:02,560
later

1825
01:12:09,189 --> 01:12:06,880
project on the air i get a call out of

1826
01:12:10,790 --> 01:12:09,199
the blue after it's been broadcast from

1827
01:12:12,470 --> 01:12:10,800
a guy named robert bigelow who said i

1828
01:12:14,149 --> 01:12:12,480
really found that interesting i'd like

1829
01:12:16,470 --> 01:12:14,159
to help you moving forward and then a

1830
01:12:18,390 --> 01:12:16,480
few weeks later we met and struck up a

1831
01:12:20,790 --> 01:12:18,400
friendship that has led to so much in

1832
01:12:22,709 --> 01:12:20,800
the years since then meeting with reed

1833
01:12:24,470 --> 01:12:22,719
and getting him interested in ufos and

1834
01:12:26,709 --> 01:12:24,480
then meeting with bigelow

1835
01:12:28,870 --> 01:12:26,719
later led to those two getting together

1836
01:12:30,630 --> 01:12:28,880
when when nids was first up and running

1837
01:12:32,550 --> 01:12:30,640
and the science advisory board was

1838
01:12:34,550 --> 01:12:32,560
meeting and reid went to those meetings

1839
01:12:36,870 --> 01:12:34,560
i had told him about it he went he got

1840
01:12:37,830 --> 01:12:36,880
it invest invested in the topic and

1841
01:12:41,350 --> 01:12:37,840
interested

1842
01:12:43,910 --> 01:12:41,360
that paid off a decade later when he was

1843
01:12:46,630 --> 01:12:43,920
primary co-sponsor of what became the uh

1844
01:12:48,790 --> 01:12:46,640
asap program so you know any change

1845
01:12:50,950 --> 01:12:48,800
along those way along the way and any of

1846
01:12:52,229 --> 01:12:50,960
that stuff i wouldn't be here i wouldn't

1847
01:12:54,229 --> 01:12:52,239
be talking to you about it i wouldn't

1848
01:12:56,070 --> 01:12:54,239
know column uh who knows if those

1849
01:12:57,750 --> 01:12:56,080
programs would have got underway anyway

1850
01:12:59,990 --> 01:12:57,760
but and it's so

1851
01:13:01,910 --> 01:13:00,000
cool to have moved here to las vegas to

1852
01:13:03,590 --> 01:13:01,920
begin with have no idea about the

1853
01:13:04,950 --> 01:13:03,600
direction my career and my life would

1854
01:13:07,270 --> 01:13:04,960
take take

1855
01:13:09,350 --> 01:13:07,280
in being able to know this stuff but i i

1856
01:13:10,470 --> 01:13:09,360
feel privileged every day to to be able

1857
01:13:12,070 --> 01:13:10,480
to call a

1858
01:13:14,070 --> 01:13:12,080
column on the phone and bend his ear a

1859
01:13:16,390 --> 01:13:14,080
little bit

1860
01:13:18,630 --> 01:13:16,400
you guys i assume both of you

1861
01:13:19,910 --> 01:13:18,640
have fun doing this investigating this

1862
01:13:22,630 --> 01:13:19,920
because if i didn't have fun i wouldn't

1863
01:13:24,790 --> 01:13:22,640
do it spend so much time on it and

1864
01:13:26,310 --> 01:13:24,800
connection not really connection but do

1865
01:13:31,189 --> 01:13:26,320
you both agree that

1866
01:13:34,709 --> 01:13:33,030
that's the direction where column and

1867
01:13:37,270 --> 01:13:34,719
robert bigelow are heading you know it's

1868
01:13:38,790 --> 01:13:37,280
not an uh an accident that bix has been

1869
01:13:40,870 --> 01:13:38,800
created the bigelow institute for

1870
01:13:42,870 --> 01:13:40,880
consciousness studies people remember

1871
01:13:45,510 --> 01:13:42,880
nids and they remember it for its

1872
01:13:47,350 --> 01:13:45,520
interest in ufos and forget that that

1873
01:13:49,350 --> 01:13:47,360
organization the national institute for

1874
01:13:51,189 --> 01:13:49,360
discovery science really had two

1875
01:13:51,990 --> 01:13:51,199
two goals when it was created uh you

1876
01:13:53,669 --> 01:13:52,000
know

1877
01:13:56,550 --> 01:13:53,679
are we alone in the universe what's the

1878
01:13:58,550 --> 01:13:56,560
evidence for ufos and does uh does our

1879
01:14:00,390 --> 01:13:58,560
consciousness survive physical death

1880
01:14:03,030 --> 01:14:00,400
eventually the ufo side sort of

1881
01:14:05,669 --> 01:14:03,040
dominated you of the mids process and

1882
01:14:07,350 --> 01:14:05,679
took over but that that goal of

1883
01:14:09,030 --> 01:14:07,360
investigating consciousness and what it

1884
01:14:11,270 --> 01:14:09,040
means was always in the back of

1885
01:14:13,189 --> 01:14:11,280
bigelow's mind and it's where he's

1886
01:14:15,430 --> 01:14:13,199
returned to now sort of returning to his

1887
01:14:17,750 --> 01:14:15,440
roots with this organization called bix

1888
01:14:19,669 --> 01:14:17,760
that column is directly involved with as

1889
01:14:21,990 --> 01:14:19,679
you probably heard they just had this

1890
01:14:24,149 --> 01:14:22,000
big contest where they're about to award

1891
01:14:26,790 --> 01:14:24,159
1.8 million dollars in prizes for

1892
01:14:29,189 --> 01:14:26,800
writing essays the best evidence for

1893
01:14:30,630 --> 01:14:29,199
proof that life exists after physical

1894
01:14:32,950 --> 01:14:30,640
death and um

1895
01:14:35,350 --> 01:14:32,960
if you ask me as a non-scientist to

1896
01:14:37,750 --> 01:14:35,360
explain how consciousness ties together

1897
01:14:39,350 --> 01:14:37,760
not only physical death but ufos

1898
01:14:40,950 --> 01:14:39,360
poltergeists things of that sort i

1899
01:14:42,820 --> 01:14:40,960
probably couldn't do it but i'll bet

1900
01:14:44,310 --> 01:14:42,830
column can

1901
01:14:45,750 --> 01:14:44,320
[Laughter]

1902
01:14:48,950 --> 01:14:45,760
well um

1903
01:14:51,430 --> 01:14:48,960
i know that you know a few years ago i

1904
01:14:53,910 --> 01:14:51,440
stumbled on um

1905
01:14:55,189 --> 01:14:53,920
a um

1906
01:15:12,390 --> 01:14:55,199
a

1907
01:15:14,390 --> 01:15:12,400
um

1908
01:15:15,830 --> 01:15:14,400
essay contest but

1909
01:15:21,750 --> 01:15:15,840
um

1910
01:15:24,630 --> 01:15:21,760
really interesting in terms of

1911
01:15:27,910 --> 01:15:24,640
turning the whole paradigm of

1912
01:15:29,510 --> 01:15:27,920
consciousness on its head and basically

1913
01:15:31,830 --> 01:15:29,520
he's not the only one he's there's a

1914
01:15:33,910 --> 01:15:31,840
number of other people but bernardo

1915
01:15:35,189 --> 01:15:33,920
castro has been very vocal in the last

1916
01:15:39,430 --> 01:15:35,199
five years

1917
01:15:42,470 --> 01:15:39,440
um and the idea is is that consciousness

1918
01:15:45,110 --> 01:15:42,480
is not an emergent property of

1919
01:15:48,229 --> 01:15:45,120
neurochemical trafficking in the brain

1920
01:15:50,550 --> 01:15:48,239
it actually exists beyond the brain and

1921
01:15:53,270 --> 01:15:50,560
in other words the the

1922
01:15:55,590 --> 01:15:53,280
the body inhabits consciousness as

1923
01:15:57,990 --> 01:15:55,600
opposed to consciousness inhabits the

1924
01:16:00,550 --> 01:15:58,000
body and so there are other people like

1925
01:16:02,790 --> 01:16:00,560
the inventor of microprocessors

1926
01:16:05,750 --> 01:16:02,800
federico faheen

1927
01:16:07,990 --> 01:16:05,760
is a really big player in this uh edward

1928
01:16:11,110 --> 01:16:08,000
kelly at the at the university of

1929
01:16:13,270 --> 01:16:11,120
virginia is a big player on in this

1930
01:16:14,709 --> 01:16:13,280
jeffrey cripel who is a one of the

1931
01:16:17,990 --> 01:16:14,719
judges

1932
01:16:20,709 --> 01:16:18,000
at the biggs essay competition is also

1933
01:16:23,189 --> 01:16:20,719
sort of very much involved in this way

1934
01:16:24,790 --> 01:16:23,199
of thinking and the bottom line is that

1935
01:16:27,669 --> 01:16:24,800
that

1936
01:16:30,870 --> 01:16:27,679
this way of thinking about consciousness

1937
01:16:35,430 --> 01:16:30,880
may actually open up different avenues

1938
01:16:38,630 --> 01:16:35,440
of for future research in in ufos and

1939
01:16:41,110 --> 01:16:38,640
the the essence of this uh intent would

1940
01:16:43,350 --> 01:16:41,120
be to to look at

1941
01:16:46,870 --> 01:16:43,360
um for example look at survival of

1942
01:16:49,910 --> 01:16:46,880
consciousness as being one part of the

1943
01:16:52,470 --> 01:16:49,920
overall study of consciousness but how

1944
01:16:55,590 --> 01:16:52,480
does the survival of consciousness

1945
01:16:58,709 --> 01:16:55,600
maybe uh overlap with the overall field

1946
01:17:01,270 --> 01:16:58,719
of of ufos and and the so-called

1947
01:17:02,550 --> 01:17:01,280
phenomenon and how does how does human

1948
01:17:04,709 --> 01:17:02,560
consciousness

1949
01:17:06,870 --> 01:17:04,719
if looked at from a completely different

1950
01:17:11,189 --> 01:17:06,880
perspective how does that actually

1951
01:17:13,669 --> 01:17:11,199
overlap with the field of ufo uh and ufo

1952
01:17:15,189 --> 01:17:13,679
affects ufo human effects

1953
01:17:17,030 --> 01:17:15,199
um you know

1954
01:17:19,590 --> 01:17:17,040
at bigelow institute for consciousness

1955
01:17:20,790 --> 01:17:19,600
studies we think that there's a lot of

1956
01:17:23,750 --> 01:17:20,800
fruitful

1957
01:17:26,630 --> 01:17:23,760
avenues that might be able to go forward

1958
01:17:31,270 --> 01:17:26,640
in this whole sort of generic

1959
01:17:32,950 --> 01:17:31,280
um new way of looking at consciousness

1960
01:17:35,030 --> 01:17:32,960
is there anything

1961
01:17:36,790 --> 01:17:35,040
in the book either one of you can think

1962
01:17:38,950 --> 01:17:36,800
of that you wanted to put in but for

1963
01:17:42,149 --> 01:17:38,960
whatever reason whether it was space

1964
01:17:45,590 --> 01:17:43,910
yeah there's a ton of stuff i mean just

1965
01:17:48,550 --> 01:17:45,600
had to cut it off at some point column

1966
01:17:50,630 --> 01:17:48,560
had to had to slap my wrists a few times

1967
01:17:52,149 --> 01:17:50,640
for somebody late that didn't make it

1968
01:17:53,430 --> 01:17:52,159
but yeah there's a there's a whole bunch

1969
01:17:55,830 --> 01:17:53,440
of stuff it could have been probably

1970
01:17:57,189 --> 01:17:55,840
twice as big as it is right now um i

1971
01:17:59,430 --> 01:17:57,199
don't know if we want to say what those

1972
01:18:02,149 --> 01:17:59,440
things are column it's up to you

1973
01:18:04,390 --> 01:18:02,159
no i i think there is a lot of material

1974
01:18:06,950 --> 01:18:04,400
i mean if you look at appendix one in

1975
01:18:08,870 --> 01:18:06,960
the book you can see an enormous number

1976
01:18:10,709 --> 01:18:08,880
of uh of

1977
01:18:13,590 --> 01:18:10,719
reports that went in

1978
01:18:16,070 --> 01:18:13,600
those reports are extremely detailed so

1979
01:18:20,390 --> 01:18:16,080
the book really is only a very small

1980
01:18:22,390 --> 01:18:20,400
snapshot of uh you know the the immense

1981
01:18:25,030 --> 01:18:22,400
number of reports you know i tell the

1982
01:18:27,110 --> 01:18:25,040
story i think i tell it in the book of

1983
01:18:30,390 --> 01:18:27,120
you know when all of the

1984
01:18:33,350 --> 01:18:30,400
um the three-ring binder reports the

1985
01:18:35,590 --> 01:18:33,360
actual paper reports were collated

1986
01:18:37,669 --> 01:18:35,600
together as part of one of the

1987
01:18:39,910 --> 01:18:37,679
deliverables to the defense intelligence

1988
01:18:42,550 --> 01:18:39,920
agency they wanted both electronic

1989
01:18:46,310 --> 01:18:42,560
copies and paper copies well the paper

1990
01:18:48,790 --> 01:18:46,320
copies um actually stood six feet high

1991
01:18:50,709 --> 01:18:48,800
in my office before they were all sort

1992
01:18:51,750 --> 01:18:50,719
of sent off to defense intelligence

1993
01:18:54,790 --> 01:18:51,760
agency

1994
01:18:56,149 --> 01:18:54,800
so that the book only sort of takes a

1995
01:18:57,750 --> 01:18:56,159
couple of

1996
01:19:00,870 --> 01:18:57,760
snapshots

1997
01:19:03,669 --> 01:19:00,880
to try to give as complete a summary of

1998
01:19:06,149 --> 01:19:03,679
the program the asap program as possible

1999
01:19:08,950 --> 01:19:06,159
but there's an immense amount of detail

2000
01:19:11,430 --> 01:19:08,960
that is not in the book and you know uh

2001
01:19:12,310 --> 01:19:11,440
you know those those reports

2002
01:19:19,110 --> 01:19:12,320
are

2003
01:19:21,750 --> 01:19:19,120
very good reasons um right now but um

2004
01:19:25,430 --> 01:19:21,760
we think that the the book is the most

2005
01:19:27,830 --> 01:19:25,440
complete summary of the asap program i

2006
01:19:30,870 --> 01:19:27,840
think that we could possibly

2007
01:19:33,910 --> 01:19:30,880
have come up with especially that we

2008
01:19:37,270 --> 01:19:33,920
we've line item after line item all of

2009
01:19:39,750 --> 01:19:37,280
the 100 plus reports are itemized in

2010
01:19:42,149 --> 01:19:39,760
appendix one of that book so that's not

2011
01:19:42,950 --> 01:19:42,159
an accident that's basically

2012
01:19:44,310 --> 01:19:42,960
to

2013
01:19:45,510 --> 01:19:44,320
show

2014
01:19:48,310 --> 01:19:45,520
the immense

2015
01:19:50,310 --> 01:19:48,320
scope of the asap program

2016
01:19:52,229 --> 01:19:50,320
let me add to this uh joe too something

2017
01:19:54,390 --> 01:19:52,239
that's really not in the book that i

2018
01:19:56,950 --> 01:19:54,400
think we could address here is that is

2019
01:19:59,350 --> 01:19:56,960
about ata you know we do mention about

2020
01:20:01,830 --> 01:19:59,360
atip and how it grew out of ossap there

2021
01:20:04,390 --> 01:20:01,840
was awesome and atep came later it was a

2022
01:20:06,709 --> 01:20:04,400
real program in the ufo world people

2023
01:20:08,950 --> 01:20:06,719
always trying to stir the pot and cause

2024
01:20:10,950 --> 01:20:08,960
divisions drive a wedge between the

2025
01:20:13,110 --> 01:20:10,960
story that we tell here and the story

2026
01:20:14,709 --> 01:20:13,120
that's been told by lou elizondo

2027
01:20:16,310 --> 01:20:14,719
those two are pretty much seamless i

2028
01:20:18,390 --> 01:20:16,320
know in the beginning when lou came

2029
01:20:20,870 --> 01:20:18,400
forward he had to do a little bit bit of

2030
01:20:23,030 --> 01:20:20,880
dancing when it came to awesome

2031
01:20:24,790 --> 01:20:23,040
and you know in terms of how quick he

2032
01:20:26,550 --> 01:20:24,800
couldn't talk about it it wasn't his

2033
01:20:28,149 --> 01:20:26,560
program he didn't want to spill any

2034
01:20:29,990 --> 01:20:28,159
beans that he wasn't supposed to be and

2035
01:20:32,229 --> 01:20:30,000
so he danced around a little bit but

2036
01:20:35,189 --> 01:20:32,239
this is this book is supportive of lou

2037
01:20:37,189 --> 01:20:35,199
elizondo it is not derogatory in any way

2038
01:20:39,669 --> 01:20:37,199
it supports his role in it he was a very

2039
01:20:41,510 --> 01:20:39,679
key player and we're we're proud to know

2040
01:20:43,830 --> 01:20:41,520
him and proud of how he's taken the ball

2041
01:20:46,709 --> 01:20:43,840
and ran with it done some amazing things

2042
01:20:48,629 --> 01:20:46,719
after with ttsa and then afterward this

2043
01:20:50,709 --> 01:20:48,639
is not contrary to louis elizondo's

2044
01:20:53,110 --> 01:20:50,719
story it is supportive of blue's story

2045
01:20:55,910 --> 01:20:53,120
and we wish him nothing but success in

2046
01:20:57,910 --> 01:20:55,920
his ventures going forward

2047
01:20:59,110 --> 01:20:57,920
all right i need i need to cover one

2048
01:21:01,669 --> 01:20:59,120
more thing

2049
01:21:03,430 --> 01:21:01,679
as we're reading uh last 10 minutes i

2050
01:21:04,870 --> 01:21:03,440
want to read from the book george will

2051
01:21:05,990 --> 01:21:04,880
see where i'm going quickly because it's

2052
01:21:07,140 --> 01:21:06,000
something i've been interested in a

2053
01:21:08,310 --> 01:21:07,150
while

2054
01:21:10,550 --> 01:21:08,320
[Music]

2055
01:21:12,790 --> 01:21:10,560
it talks about

2056
01:21:15,590 --> 01:21:12,800
shortly after the successful meeting

2057
01:21:17,910 --> 01:21:15,600
with o'toole at dhs sasha mover and jim

2058
01:21:19,430 --> 01:21:17,920
bell began knocking on doors beyond dhs

2059
01:21:21,830 --> 01:21:19,440
to connect with the keepers of the

2060
01:21:23,830 --> 01:21:21,840
secrets and basically

2061
01:21:27,430 --> 01:21:23,840
they came to the conclusion after being

2062
01:21:29,430 --> 01:21:27,440
rejected and told no in hell no that

2063
01:21:31,189 --> 01:21:29,440
advanced technology was sequestered

2064
01:21:33,830 --> 01:21:31,199
under government supervision at

2065
01:21:35,910 --> 01:21:33,840
aerospace contractors facilities as a

2066
01:21:37,669 --> 01:21:35,920
result dhs officials became very

2067
01:21:40,629 --> 01:21:37,679
hesitant and even fearful of moving

2068
01:21:42,550 --> 01:21:40,639
forward then we go back to 2004

2069
01:21:43,590 --> 01:21:42,560
column was on coast to coast with art

2070
01:21:45,110 --> 01:21:43,600
bell

2071
01:21:47,270 --> 01:21:45,120
and he said we have information over the

2072
01:21:49,750 --> 01:21:47,280
past few years that indicates that

2073
01:21:51,669 --> 01:21:49,760
pieces of technology have been recovered

2074
01:21:53,270 --> 01:21:51,679
um and then you say

2075
01:21:54,070 --> 01:21:53,280
there's a lot of lines of evidence we're

2076
01:21:57,830 --> 01:21:54,080
really

2077
01:21:59,750 --> 01:21:57,840
conversations kind of thing that

2078
01:22:01,910 --> 01:21:59,760
suggests there is technology that's been

2079
01:22:03,350 --> 01:22:01,920
recovered it's definitely not a smoking

2080
01:22:05,189 --> 01:22:03,360
gun so for me

2081
01:22:06,709 --> 01:22:05,199
i'm really close with eric davis and

2082
01:22:08,709 --> 01:22:06,719
i've done a lot of work on the wilson

2083
01:22:11,669 --> 01:22:08,719
davis documents calm what can you tell

2084
01:22:13,669 --> 01:22:11,679
us were you there in october 2002 do you

2085
01:22:15,270 --> 01:22:13,679
know anything you can share as far as

2086
01:22:17,350 --> 01:22:15,280
your opinion i mean i've spoken to many

2087
01:22:19,270 --> 01:22:17,360
sources i'm convinced eric interviewed

2088
01:22:20,790 --> 01:22:19,280
admiral davis back in 2002 it's not a

2089
01:22:21,990 --> 01:22:20,800
question the only question for me is

2090
01:22:23,830 --> 01:22:22,000
whether or not

2091
01:22:25,910 --> 01:22:23,840
admiral wilson you know told him the

2092
01:22:28,229 --> 01:22:25,920
truth or admiral wilson was told the

2093
01:22:29,750 --> 01:22:28,239
truth from the program manager so you're

2094
01:22:31,750 --> 01:22:29,760
one of the people who was in nids at the

2095
01:22:34,709 --> 01:22:31,760
time so if anything you can add to that

2096
01:22:36,870 --> 01:22:34,719
well this actually um happened after

2097
01:22:41,669 --> 01:22:36,880
earth davis left niz

2098
01:22:43,750 --> 01:22:41,679
um so um i i mean i know the the um that

2099
01:22:46,870 --> 01:22:43,760
that section that you read out in the in

2100
01:22:48,149 --> 01:22:46,880
the book was was um

2101
01:22:50,870 --> 01:22:48,159
essentially

2102
01:22:53,430 --> 01:22:50,880
the absolute max that we were allowed to

2103
01:22:56,950 --> 01:22:53,440
put in and that that section was

2104
01:23:00,070 --> 01:22:56,960
reviewed by four separate agencies

2105
01:23:01,750 --> 01:23:00,080
uh and departments and um going beyond

2106
01:23:04,229 --> 01:23:01,760
that section i'm not allowed to go

2107
01:23:05,110 --> 01:23:04,239
beyond that section because i still am

2108
01:23:06,390 --> 01:23:05,120
under

2109
01:23:07,350 --> 01:23:06,400
um two

2110
01:23:09,669 --> 01:23:07,360
plus

2111
01:23:11,830 --> 01:23:09,679
separate non-disclosure agreements so i

2112
01:23:14,709 --> 01:23:11,840
can't talk about anything beyond what's

2113
01:23:17,430 --> 01:23:14,719
in the book on on that score but you

2114
01:23:21,669 --> 01:23:17,440
know the what what it says in those two

2115
01:23:22,629 --> 01:23:21,679
paragraphs i think are self-explanatory

2116
01:23:24,790 --> 01:23:22,639
well i

2117
01:23:26,709 --> 01:23:24,800
i i would explain it this way as i mean

2118
01:23:28,870 --> 01:23:26,719
here's how i read that section joe is

2119
01:23:29,669 --> 01:23:28,880
that these guys went and knocked on the

2120
01:23:31,990 --> 01:23:29,679
door

2121
01:23:33,990 --> 01:23:32,000
and asked about seeing the goodies and

2122
01:23:35,910 --> 01:23:34,000
the door was slammed in their face not

2123
01:23:37,990 --> 01:23:35,920
just sort of closed and gently told to

2124
01:23:39,750 --> 01:23:38,000
go away but slammed and you can read

2125
01:23:41,669 --> 01:23:39,760
into that what you want i told you my

2126
01:23:44,470 --> 01:23:41,679
opinion about the wilson davis documents

2127
01:23:45,830 --> 01:23:44,480
uh you know i was i didn't work for nids

2128
01:23:48,070 --> 01:23:45,840
at that point

2129
01:23:49,669 --> 01:23:48,080
and uh but i did hear about it from

2130
01:23:52,310 --> 01:23:49,679
these guys and although eric had left

2131
01:23:55,030 --> 01:23:52,320
nids those ties between he and the

2132
01:23:56,550 --> 01:23:55,040
people like hal and and and mr bigelow

2133
01:23:59,189 --> 01:23:56,560
are pretty strong and remain strong to

2134
01:24:01,110 --> 01:23:59,199
this day and i think those uh i think

2135
01:24:03,430 --> 01:24:01,120
those notes are legit and that you

2136
01:24:05,189 --> 01:24:03,440
really did have that meeting

2137
01:24:07,590 --> 01:24:05,199
yeah and the reason i'm so interested in

2138
01:24:09,270 --> 01:24:07,600
it i think you guys would agree if if we

2139
01:24:10,790 --> 01:24:09,280
have an intact craft and not just a

2140
01:24:13,189 --> 01:24:10,800
piece that can be analyzed it would be a

2141
01:24:15,110 --> 01:24:13,199
game changer it would be game over if we

2142
01:24:17,110 --> 01:24:15,120
actually were able to see that that's

2143
01:24:18,870 --> 01:24:17,120
why i really have not focused on crash

2144
01:24:20,709 --> 01:24:18,880
retrievals before that i was not i mean

2145
01:24:21,990 --> 01:24:20,719
roswell yes but it's like we'll never

2146
01:24:23,830 --> 01:24:22,000
see it and then this came out and i was

2147
01:24:25,510 --> 01:24:23,840
like all right maybe and now it's made

2148
01:24:26,870 --> 01:24:25,520
it into the language with

2149
01:24:27,990 --> 01:24:26,880
i don't know if gallego was the first

2150
01:24:29,510 --> 01:24:28,000
one who brought it up and then

2151
01:24:31,110 --> 01:24:29,520
gillibrand but it's still there and i'm

2152
01:24:32,470 --> 01:24:31,120
crossing my fingers it makes it into the

2153
01:24:34,550 --> 01:24:32,480
final version of course i'm not under

2154
01:24:36,390 --> 01:24:34,560
the i'm not naive enough to think that

2155
01:24:38,390 --> 01:24:36,400
next year we're going to see the craft

2156
01:24:40,070 --> 01:24:38,400
roll out into congress for a live

2157
01:24:43,350 --> 01:24:40,080
hearing but at least we're making

2158
01:24:45,270 --> 01:24:43,360
progress and it's being talked about

2159
01:24:46,550 --> 01:24:45,280
i'd say if if somebody does in fact have

2160
01:24:48,550 --> 01:24:46,560
the goodies

2161
01:24:50,470 --> 01:24:48,560
if i were them i'd fight like hell to

2162
01:24:52,470 --> 01:24:50,480
not give them up and i'd say the closer

2163
01:24:53,910 --> 01:24:52,480
people get to them the harder that the

2164
01:24:55,910 --> 01:24:53,920
keepers of the secrets will fight to

2165
01:24:57,830 --> 01:24:55,920
hang on to them

2166
01:25:00,629 --> 01:24:57,840
my last question and this is total

2167
01:25:03,270 --> 01:25:00,639
speculation but when i saw it

2168
01:25:05,669 --> 01:25:03,280
i read 2007 jim lakatsky goes to the

2169
01:25:07,910 --> 01:25:05,679
ranch has an experience and

2170
01:25:09,510 --> 01:25:07,920
i know george you've speculated that

2171
01:25:11,510 --> 01:25:09,520
maybe this thing was wanting to be

2172
01:25:12,950 --> 01:25:11,520
studied have you got have you guys ever

2173
01:25:15,030 --> 01:25:12,960
thought about maybe it wanted to be

2174
01:25:16,790 --> 01:25:15,040
studied because it knows when people

2175
01:25:18,149 --> 01:25:16,800
visit the ranch it attaches and it can

2176
01:25:20,470 --> 01:25:18,159
spread out through the world have you

2177
01:25:21,990 --> 01:25:20,480
guys just thought about that idea

2178
01:25:24,550 --> 01:25:22,000
for for good or for bad we still don't

2179
01:25:26,149 --> 01:25:24,560
know i mean people get sick um but maybe

2180
01:25:28,709 --> 01:25:26,159
it's something more than that that we're

2181
01:25:30,470 --> 01:25:28,719
not seeing at this point

2182
01:25:32,149 --> 01:25:30,480
it could only be guesswork on our part

2183
01:25:33,910 --> 01:25:32,159
you know not everybody who goes to the

2184
01:25:35,510 --> 01:25:33,920
ranch sees something i'm an example of

2185
01:25:37,030 --> 01:25:35,520
that all the dozens of times i've been

2186
01:25:39,510 --> 01:25:37,040
there i've never seen anything i'd call

2187
01:25:40,470 --> 01:25:39,520
truly anomalous and until

2188
01:25:43,510 --> 01:25:40,480
uh a

2189
01:25:45,030 --> 01:25:43,520
a a decade or so into my visits there i

2190
01:25:47,189 --> 01:25:45,040
never brought anything home so it

2191
01:25:49,189 --> 01:25:47,199
doesn't attack everyone doesn't attach

2192
01:25:50,790 --> 01:25:49,199
itself to everyone and it doesn't show

2193
01:25:53,030 --> 01:25:50,800
its reveal itself to everyone but it

2194
01:25:55,030 --> 01:25:53,040
definitely revealed itself to jim

2195
01:25:56,950 --> 01:25:55,040
and it is uh momentous the effects have

2196
01:25:58,709 --> 01:25:56,960
been momentous there were five of those

2197
01:26:00,629 --> 01:25:58,719
intelligence agents that that column

2198
01:26:02,790 --> 01:26:00,639
talked about who visited the property

2199
01:26:04,629 --> 01:26:02,800
specifically assigned there to be there

2200
01:26:06,709 --> 01:26:04,639
as part of the program and all of them

2201
01:26:08,709 --> 01:26:06,719
had an experience and all of them took

2202
01:26:10,709 --> 01:26:08,719
something home whatever it is whatever

2203
01:26:12,070 --> 01:26:10,719
intelligence is at the ranch it seems to

2204
01:26:14,149 --> 01:26:12,080
be able to differentiate it

2205
01:26:16,709 --> 01:26:14,159
differentiates between people and

2206
01:26:19,110 --> 01:26:16,719
animals it differentiates between people

2207
01:26:21,350 --> 01:26:19,120
who are aggressive and uh and not

2208
01:26:22,950 --> 01:26:21,360
friendly and don't have good intentions

2209
01:26:24,870 --> 01:26:22,960
and those who are there to learn at

2210
01:26:27,350 --> 01:26:24,880
least that is my impression can't prove

2211
01:26:29,189 --> 01:26:27,360
it but that's my impression after 20

2212
01:26:30,870 --> 01:26:29,199
plus years of of going there and talking

2213
01:26:32,950 --> 01:26:30,880
to the people who spent a lot of time

2214
01:26:34,790 --> 01:26:32,960
did it pick jim lescatsky out for a

2215
01:26:38,149 --> 01:26:34,800
mission maybe

2216
01:26:41,189 --> 01:26:38,870
just

2217
01:26:42,550 --> 01:26:41,199
to look at the n is small i mean there

2218
01:26:44,470 --> 01:26:42,560
were five

2219
01:26:47,270 --> 01:26:44,480
five people from different intelligence

2220
01:26:50,390 --> 01:26:47,280
agencies and different uh parts of the

2221
01:26:52,229 --> 01:26:50,400
armed services uh went on the ranch as

2222
01:26:53,350 --> 01:26:52,239
part of the osap program as georgians

2223
01:26:55,750 --> 01:26:53,360
just said

2224
01:26:58,310 --> 01:26:55,760
and the fact that five out of five 100

2225
01:27:00,070 --> 01:26:58,320
percent there were no exceptions

2226
01:27:03,830 --> 01:27:00,080
um to this

2227
01:27:06,310 --> 01:27:03,840
all five uh actually did did

2228
01:27:09,350 --> 01:27:06,320
encounter something and also brought

2229
01:27:11,830 --> 01:27:09,360
something home with them now that's goes

2230
01:27:14,870 --> 01:27:11,840
way beyond what the what the

2231
01:27:17,030 --> 01:27:14,880
statistical norm is on on skinwalker

2232
01:27:18,870 --> 01:27:17,040
ranch there's a lot of people have gone

2233
01:27:20,629 --> 01:27:18,880
through that property

2234
01:27:22,629 --> 01:27:20,639
you know people have investigated for a

2235
01:27:24,870 --> 01:27:22,639
couple of weeks kind of thing

2236
01:27:28,310 --> 01:27:24,880
people have been on the property

2237
01:27:31,270 --> 01:27:28,320
five out of five 100 no exceptions is

2238
01:27:34,470 --> 01:27:31,280
a statistical blip now the question is

2239
01:27:35,830 --> 01:27:34,480
is that meaningful and and you know

2240
01:27:38,149 --> 01:27:35,840
um

2241
01:27:40,950 --> 01:27:38,159
the way to test that is to put another

2242
01:27:42,709 --> 01:27:40,960
five or ten people from various

2243
01:27:45,430 --> 01:27:42,719
intelligence services

2244
01:27:46,390 --> 01:27:45,440
maybe people from the uap task force can

2245
01:27:49,189 --> 01:27:46,400
volunteer

2246
01:27:52,310 --> 01:27:49,199
to go up on skinwalker ranch and part of

2247
01:27:52,950 --> 01:27:52,320
the you know the public good and uh and

2248
01:27:57,669 --> 01:27:52,960
and

2249
01:28:00,390 --> 01:27:57,679
of joking but i mean um

2250
01:28:04,629 --> 01:28:00,400
to me five and out of five 100 no

2251
01:28:07,110 --> 01:28:04,639
exceptions was very very stunning and um

2252
01:28:08,550 --> 01:28:07,120
i would like to see that number sort of

2253
01:28:11,030 --> 01:28:08,560
tested

2254
01:28:13,990 --> 01:28:11,040
to see if it was if 20 people went on

2255
01:28:15,990 --> 01:28:14,000
the ranch would it be 5 out of 20 or

2256
01:28:17,830 --> 01:28:16,000
would it be 10 out of 20 would it be 20

2257
01:28:20,149 --> 01:28:17,840
out of 20. um

2258
01:28:21,910 --> 01:28:20,159
that experiment remains to be done and

2259
01:28:23,350 --> 01:28:21,920
the other thing is people and i george

2260
01:28:25,350 --> 01:28:23,360
mentioned that the attitude of the

2261
01:28:26,390 --> 01:28:25,360
person going in affects their experience

2262
01:28:28,390 --> 01:28:26,400
although

2263
01:28:29,990 --> 01:28:28,400
thomas winterton didn't have a combative

2264
01:28:31,750 --> 01:28:30,000
experience and i don't know if you have

2265
01:28:33,430 --> 01:28:31,760
any data on that but

2266
01:28:35,189 --> 01:28:33,440
is there data as far as related to

2267
01:28:36,790 --> 01:28:35,199
somebody's attitude when they went in

2268
01:28:37,830 --> 01:28:36,800
saying oh this is nothing nothing's

2269
01:28:39,990 --> 01:28:37,840
going to happen and then they get

2270
01:28:40,830 --> 01:28:40,000
slammed to the really life-changing

2271
01:28:43,510 --> 01:28:40,840
changing

2272
01:28:45,830 --> 01:28:43,520
event well probably not data just

2273
01:28:47,910 --> 01:28:45,840
observations uh from me being around her

2274
01:28:49,910 --> 01:28:47,920
for so long you know i know that when i

2275
01:28:51,350 --> 01:28:49,920
go there i get in the mental framework

2276
01:28:53,430 --> 01:28:51,360
that i'm going to be ready for whatever

2277
01:28:56,229 --> 01:28:53,440
happens and i'm respectful and i think

2278
01:28:58,229 --> 01:28:56,239
column does the same thing

2279
01:29:00,149 --> 01:28:58,239
absolutely yeah

2280
01:29:01,430 --> 01:29:00,159
but again you know that the thomas

2281
01:29:02,629 --> 01:29:01,440
winterton

2282
01:29:04,870 --> 01:29:02,639
um

2283
01:29:07,669 --> 01:29:04,880
incident goes back to and obviously

2284
01:29:09,910 --> 01:29:07,679
there's a lot a lot of data we we i i

2285
01:29:11,830 --> 01:29:09,920
personally don't know but it does go

2286
01:29:14,629 --> 01:29:11,840
back to the necessity and i know they

2287
01:29:16,950 --> 01:29:14,639
have already done this of you know

2288
01:29:19,910 --> 01:29:16,960
intensive investigation over long

2289
01:29:22,550 --> 01:29:19,920
periods of time and and again and again

2290
01:29:25,590 --> 01:29:22,560
i mean i can't say this too often that

2291
01:29:28,709 --> 01:29:25,600
the these kinds of programs

2292
01:29:31,669 --> 01:29:28,719
have ushered in a way of approaching

2293
01:29:34,550 --> 01:29:31,679
this phenomenon that does extend into

2294
01:29:37,030 --> 01:29:34,560
months and years of following people and

2295
01:29:39,750 --> 01:29:37,040
that is frankly uh

2296
01:29:43,270 --> 01:29:39,760
resource intensive so what whatever

2297
01:29:44,790 --> 01:29:43,280
follows on from uh what the us the uap

2298
01:29:47,830 --> 01:29:44,800
task force has done

2299
01:29:49,510 --> 01:29:47,840
will need to be very resource intensive

2300
01:29:51,270 --> 01:29:49,520
and uh in order to be able to get

2301
01:29:53,910 --> 01:29:51,280
answers because

2302
01:29:55,590 --> 01:29:53,920
the years and years that i spent with

2303
01:29:58,070 --> 01:29:55,600
the national institute for discovery

2304
01:29:59,750 --> 01:29:58,080
science the years that i've spent with

2305
01:30:02,390 --> 01:29:59,760
uh with asap

2306
01:30:05,350 --> 01:30:02,400
have convinced me that

2307
01:30:07,030 --> 01:30:05,360
you know what we've done has only

2308
01:30:09,590 --> 01:30:07,040
scratch the surface

2309
01:30:12,390 --> 01:30:09,600
we really need to focus on

2310
01:30:15,910 --> 01:30:12,400
deploying a lot of resources to answer

2311
01:30:19,830 --> 01:30:17,830
just real quick

2312
01:30:21,669 --> 01:30:19,840
go ahead george no i was gonna say bye

2313
01:30:23,830 --> 01:30:21,679
but go ahead no just really quick did

2314
01:30:25,430 --> 01:30:23,840
you guys purposely just keep it

2315
01:30:28,470 --> 01:30:25,440
to the story and not talk to people like

2316
01:30:29,910 --> 01:30:28,480
valet or davis or put off or green who

2317
01:30:34,950 --> 01:30:29,920
actually worked in the program was there

2318
01:30:38,390 --> 01:30:37,030
from what perspective just like not

2319
01:30:39,750 --> 01:30:38,400
getting

2320
01:30:41,270 --> 01:30:39,760
direct quotes from the people who were

2321
01:30:42,950 --> 01:30:41,280
involved in the program

2322
01:30:44,709 --> 01:30:42,960
we wanted to keep it pretty quiet what

2323
01:30:45,990 --> 01:30:44,719
we were doing because we're afraid that

2324
01:30:48,390 --> 01:30:46,000
there was you know there would be an

2325
01:30:50,550 --> 01:30:48,400
attempt to sabotage it along the way

2326
01:30:52,950 --> 01:30:50,560
and so they didn't find out until pretty

2327
01:30:55,030 --> 01:30:52,960
close to the end but uh but i think

2328
01:30:56,709 --> 01:30:55,040
column shared it with uh several of his

2329
01:30:58,310 --> 01:30:56,719
colleagues and they were all pretty much

2330
01:31:00,629 --> 01:30:58,320
supported

2331
01:31:03,030 --> 01:31:00,639
yeah i mean a number of people did know

2332
01:31:04,149 --> 01:31:03,040
exactly what was what were the contents

2333
01:31:07,590 --> 01:31:04,159
of the book

2334
01:31:09,990 --> 01:31:07,600
um prior to publication so it was not a

2335
01:31:13,110 --> 01:31:10,000
a complete secret but we did want to

2336
01:31:14,790 --> 01:31:13,120
keep it close to the the chest but uh

2337
01:31:17,189 --> 01:31:14,800
you know

2338
01:31:19,830 --> 01:31:17,199
people who were part of the program did

2339
01:31:22,070 --> 01:31:19,840
take a look at the at the book um in

2340
01:31:24,310 --> 01:31:22,080
fact several several people who were

2341
01:31:28,470 --> 01:31:24,320
part of the program looked at the book

2342
01:31:31,910 --> 01:31:28,480
both uh very early on and um and later

2343
01:31:35,590 --> 01:31:31,920
stages too so um it there were a lot of

2344
01:31:37,830 --> 01:31:35,600
a lot of people who were cognizant of it

2345
01:31:39,430 --> 01:31:37,840
so you two guys if you weren't born if

2346
01:31:41,430 --> 01:31:39,440
you didn't write humphrey the skinwalker

2347
01:31:42,950 --> 01:31:41,440
and skinwalkers at the pentagon we

2348
01:31:45,350 --> 01:31:42,960
wouldn't have had ostap we wouldn't have

2349
01:31:47,510 --> 01:31:45,360
had the language in the gila brand

2350
01:31:49,030 --> 01:31:47,520
amendment and and i know that's people

2351
01:31:50,629 --> 01:31:49,040
are making fun of that but it's true

2352
01:31:51,990 --> 01:31:50,639
likkatsky doesn't have his experience if

2353
01:31:53,350 --> 01:31:52,000
you guys don't write that book hunt for

2354
01:31:55,189 --> 01:31:53,360
the skinwalker and we wouldn't be where

2355
01:31:56,629 --> 01:31:55,199
we are right now so thank you for being

2356
01:31:58,470 --> 01:31:56,639
open-minded enough to look at the

2357
01:31:59,910 --> 01:31:58,480
evidence and go wherever it leads you

2358
01:32:02,149 --> 01:31:59,920
and i appreciate you guys taking so much

2359
01:32:03,350 --> 01:32:02,159
time with me today it's been great

2360
01:32:04,790 --> 01:32:03,360
thanks joe

2361
01:32:06,629 --> 01:32:04,800
yeah thanks it was really good to be

2362
01:32:10,830 --> 01:32:06,639
here appreciate you thank you guys talk

2363
01:32:17,669 --> 01:32:13,990
george so that was great uh

2364
01:32:20,070 --> 01:32:17,679
if you guys want to support the channel

2365
01:32:21,270 --> 01:32:20,080
that's my paypal

2366
01:32:23,830 --> 01:32:21,280
and

2367
01:32:28,310 --> 01:32:23,840
patreon

2368
01:32:28,320 --> 01:32:32,790
that is my website and twitter

2369
01:32:37,110 --> 01:32:35,669
and venmo and uh yeah that that book is

2370
01:32:38,629 --> 01:32:37,120
those two books are my favorite i mean i

2371
01:32:40,470 --> 01:32:38,639
don't just say that i've read i will

2372
01:32:41,990 --> 01:32:40,480
read skin workers at the pentagon over

2373
01:32:44,229 --> 01:32:42,000
and over there's so much stuff in there

2374
01:32:45,910 --> 01:32:44,239
i still have not

2375
01:32:47,030 --> 01:32:45,920
it has not all soaked in and i need to

2376
01:32:48,709 --> 01:32:47,040
go back and look at hunter the

2377
01:32:50,629 --> 01:32:48,719
skinwalker because the latter part of

2378
01:32:52,310 --> 01:32:50,639
hunt for the skinwalker is probably one

2379
01:32:54,790 --> 01:32:52,320
of my favorite ufo books because it's

2380
01:32:55,830 --> 01:32:54,800
not just about skinwalker ranch it talks

2381
01:32:57,910 --> 01:32:55,840
about

2382
01:32:59,750 --> 01:32:57,920
all the theories all of the evidence why

2383
01:33:02,870 --> 01:32:59,760
some people are willing to accept some

2384
01:33:04,070 --> 01:33:02,880
theories and not other theories and

2385
01:33:06,070 --> 01:33:04,080
so

2386
01:33:08,790 --> 01:33:06,080
i can't recommend those two books highly

2387
01:33:10,629 --> 01:33:08,800
enough and i'll talk to you guys soon

2388
01:33:12,390 --> 01:33:10,639
do another live stream soon probably